DEV Community: Sam Ng

Bra Asks Yangfei Chao: Who Owns the Copyright to Novels Written by AI?

Sam Ng — Wed, 08 May 2024 14:59:35 +0000

Guest:Yangfei Chao
CEO of IP Master(Quandashi.com, a Chinese intellectual property trading platform), a well-known expert in the field of intellectual property in China, Chinese patent agent. He has served as the intellectual property officer in leading companies such as Kingdee Software, Vimicro Group, and Sogou. He has deep research and insights into the standardization and systematization of corporate intellectual property, the construction of patent value assessment systems, and the handling of professional and difficult intellectual property cases.
Hosted by Sam Ng (AKA: Bra)
Founder of ServBay, Secken and DNSPod, former General Manager of the SME Product Center at Tencent Cloud, cybersecurity expert, domain and DNS technology expert, webmaster, China Europe International Business School (CEIBS) EMBA.

Bra:
I've researched your career path, from a technician at Kingdee Software to the intellectual property business officer at Sogou. This career transition is quite significant. I'm curious, what prompted you to enter the intellectual property industry? And what led you to start your own business? What are the significant milestones you've experienced?"

Yangfei Chao:

After graduating from college, as a technician, I applied for some patents in my spare time and began to explore intellectual property. By chance, when our group's product was considering entering foreign markets, we needed someone familiar with both technology and intellectual property. Thus, I transitioned from a technical position to the group's intellectual property department, marking my entry into the field. After several years in the industry, I noticed many problems, such as the gap between our country's intellectual property development philosophy, service model, value operation, and customer coverage compared to foreign countries. So, I considered using internet technology to solve these issues, hoping to make professional, high-quality, low-cost intellectual property services accessible to all market entities in China.
While in charge of intellectual property at Sogou, I met my current partner, Tan Meng, who had been in the IP service industry for many years. We both realized the problems in China's IP industry, such as outdated development concepts, inefficient service models, high information barriers, low service value, and low customer coverage. Therefore, we hoped to use technology to transform the service model and reconstruct the value of the intellectual property industry. With this dream, I decisively left Sogou at the beginning of 2015 and founded IP Master.

Bra:
It has always been a criticism from abroad that Chinese companies lack intellectual property and rely on copying and imitation to prosper. The chaos in China's intellectual property used to exist. Since joining the WTO, especially in the past five years, the state has placed great emphasis on intellectual property. What changes have occurred in China's intellectual property field? And how can we change foreign perceptions of this issue? Do you have any good methods?

Yangfei Chao:
The changes in China's intellectual property field are multifaceted. From the central government to district and county governments, all levels of leadership pay great attention to the development of the intellectual property industry and have introduced various incentive measures. The awareness of intellectual property protection among the Chinese public has significantly increased, especially among young people, whether they are starting AI, big data businesses, running bubble tea restaurants, or creating photography works. They all undertake intellectual property protection, which was unimaginable before. The number of intellectual property applicants in China has exceeded 10 million, meaning the coverage of intellectual property protection is very wide and is rapidly penetrating every corner of socioeconomic development. There has been a significant change in China's intellectual property protection environment, whether in protecting the rights of rights holders, punishing infringers, or improving the judicial and enforcement levels of intellectual property protection.
Regarding foreign criticism of Chinese intellectual property, we should view it from two aspects: on one hand, some Chinese companies have indeed infringed on foreign intellectual property; on the other hand, some criticisms are the aftermath of foreign companies not adapting to the rapid development of Chinese companies. To improve foreign perceptions of China's intellectual property development, it's not difficult; just focus on the following two aspects:
First, if every ordinary person does their job well and promptly protects every idea, design, algorithm, interaction, and work generated in their work, then our country's intellectual property strength will be incredibly strong.
Second, we must respect others' intellectual property. If we need to use someone else's intellectual property for commercial applications, then paying a fair and reasonable fee is necessary, just like we pay for listening to popular songs on Tencent Music today.

Bra:
With the state's emphasis and support for the intellectual property industry, it is considered a sunrise industry in the market and media. However, the explosive growth and prosperity expected by the market have not yet appeared. Could you analyze why the intellectual property industry has not yet reached true maturity and prosperity? What impact do you think the wave of digital upgrades in various industries will have on the mature development of the intellectual property industry in the coming years?

Yangfei Chao:
This is a misconception. Intellectual property is indeed a sunrise industry and is flourishing. As a veteran of this industry, we can feel the huge changes compared to 10 years ago. However, because the development level of our country's intellectual property industry was so low in the past, even with significant progress, there is still a long way to go to reach the level of respect for intellectual property that Western countries have.
Ten years ago, our country only had a few hundred thousand applications for trademarks, patents, and copyrights, but by 2020, trademark applications will exceed 8 million, patent applications will surpass 4.5 million, and copyright registrations will exceed 5 million. The number of intellectual property infringement protection cases also jumped from tens of thousands to over 600,000.
Of course, there are still many obstacles to the development of our country's intellectual property industry, mainly reflected in low intellectual property quality, low cost of intellectual property infringement, high cost of rights protection, low level of intellectual property informatization, and the economic value of intellectual property not being fully released.
In recent years, with the widespread development of digital technology, the intellectual property industry has been significantly pushed forward, specifically manifested in:
First, the threshold for enterprises or individuals to apply for intellectual property has significantly decreased. Previously, professional service institutions were required for various evaluations and analyses, but now applications can be handled promptly online, on mobile phones, or via WeChat.
Second, the cost of intellectual property services has significantly decreased. Due to the development of digital technology, much of the work previously done by professional agents has been replaced by technology, thus significantly reducing service costs. For example, applying for a trademark used to cost more than 2000 yuan before 2015, but now it only costs 600 yuan, or even 321 yuan.
Third, the cost of intellectual property rights protection has decreased, and the cost of infringement has increased. Previously, rights protection required finding professional lawyers for various research, evidence collection, and litigation, which was costly, but the compensation for infringement was very low. With the development of digital technology, infringement behavior is easier to discover in a timely manner, significantly reducing the cost of rights protection.
Finally, the economic value of intellectual property is easier to realize. Previously, intellectual property was essentially just a certificate for decoration, and its economic value was difficult to reflect. With the deep development of digital technology, intellectual property transactions, pledges, financing, etc., have become more convenient, and the asset attributes of circulation have become stronger."

Bra:
Some time ago, the well-known intellectual property unicorn in Guangzhou, wtoip.com, was pushed to the hot search for malicious wage arrears. This scandal has made us reflect. Did wtoip.com take too big a step and not control its finances well? Now everyone advocates "Internet Plus" and industrial upgrading, but what consequences will blindly emphasizing capital-driven scale leapfrog growth bring? Can you talk about the advantages and disadvantages of this model?"

Yangfei Chao:
I think there's nothing wrong with the path of capital-driven "Internet Plus" enterprises to achieve leapfrog development. The problem lies with the enterprise managers themselves.
As entrepreneurs, the founding core team needs to do two things well to avoid such situations:
First, don't forget the original intention and stay on the right path. There are too many societal temptations, and the attraction of money is too great. If entrepreneurs forget their original intentions and cannot control their desires, purely aligning with money, then it's highly likely that the enterprise will encounter problems. The tide feels invisible when it comes, but everything becomes clear when it recedes.
Second, work diligently and earnestly. The most important thing for the founding core team is to start with the end in mind, compare the development goals every day, and diligently solve every problem that arises in the process of achieving those goals. If the users and customers are satisfied, the development of the enterprise will naturally not be poor.

Bra:
In addition to competitors in the intellectual property industry, such as zbj.com, internet giants like Alibaba and Tencent have also entered the intellectual property industry. Facing fierce market competition, how will IP Master break through? Is the entry of giants into the intellectual property industry good or bad for you? What differentiated strategies will you adopt?

Yangfei Chao:
No single tree makes a forest. The entry of many powerful enterprises into the intellectual property industry is a good thing and is more conducive to the popularization and long-term development of China's intellectual property industry.
From the perspective of IP Master's development, our thoughts are as follows:
First, the industry market size continues to increase. With the entry of Alibaba Cloud, Tencent Cloud, and other internet enterprises into the intellectual property industry, the user coverage and market size of the intellectual property industry will rapidly increase.
Second, different original intentions and goals. Alibaba Cloud, Tencent Cloud, and others' layout in the intellectual property industry is more from the perspective of enterprise services such as birth, aging, sickness, and death of enterprises, integrating resources to achieve commercial goals. In contrast, IP Master's original intention is to make intellectual property accessible to every enterprise, to release the value of intellectual property, and to help enterprises achieve commercial success.
Finally, cooperation is greater than competition. Alibaba Cloud, Tencent Cloud, and others may not focus on what IP Master focuses on. Perhaps there is some competition at the shallow business level, but if Tencent Cloud wants to provide its enterprise users with satisfactory, professional, inclusive, and full life-cycle intellectual property services, then IP Master will be the most suitable partner. Of course, we have already made preliminary communication with the relevant teams of Tencent Cloud and are making progress.

Bra:
Since the US-China trade war, the United States has continuously focused on China's intellectual property issues. This friction has also continuously prompted us to establish and improve the intellectual property system and related legal systems. What do you think of this international dispute, and what impact does it have on the intellectual property industry?

Yangfei Chao:
The background of this international dispute is the comprehensive game of national confidence and strength. As China rises rapidly in a way unexpected to the United States, the US does not know how to deal with this major change and accuses us of intellectual property infringement. This is something we need to understand.
The impact of the United States' accusations on our industry is mainly reflected in:
First, the improvement of national intellectual property protection awareness. The trade war launched by the United States against us, centered on intellectual property infringement, has made our people more clearly understand the importance of intellectual property.
Second, the acceleration of the improvement of the intellectual property legal system. In the past, our country faced some resistance in the formulation of intellectual property laws and regulations and infringement judicial enforcement. The oppression from the United States has accelerated our country's rapid improvement in the construction of the intellectual property legal system and infringement judicial enforcement system, creating a good intellectual property legal environment.
Third, it has forced our enterprises to accelerate independent research and development and transformation and upgrading. In the past, many of our enterprises adhered to the principle that independent research and development is not as good as borrowing from others. Due to the accusations and oppression from the United States, various industries and types of enterprises have accelerated independent research and development and strengthened intellectual property protection, further strengthening our industrial competitive strength.
The total amount of our country's intellectual property imports and exports increased from more than 20 billion US dollars in 2014 to 41 billion US dollars in 2019, growing rapidly.

Bra:
Intellectual property covers a wide range, including well-known patents, copyrights, and trademarks. In the industry, companies like RightKnights, AndunIP's 'one-stop strike', and Sinofaith's full layout, what are IP Master's differentiated competitive points in these specific business dimensions? Can you share your thoughts on this?

Yangfei Chao:
The service models of tens of thousands of domestic intellectual property service institutions and institutions like AndunIP and Sinofaith are essentially the same, focusing on legal cases from a legal perspective. IP Master is based on data to explore the core value of intellectual property, helping enterprises achieve commercial success with intellectual property.

Bra:
For many startups, intellectual property is very valuable. On the one hand, it protects the company's brand; on the other hand, it avoids malicious competition from other companies. However, intellectual property protection is often overlooked by startups. How can intellectual property be protected in a more efficient, faster, and cost-effective way for startups' brands, technology, and business models? What advice do you have for startups?

Yangfei Chao:
For startups' intellectual property protection, founders must deeply understand their business logic and core competitiveness, find professional and reliable agents, and focus on key layout protection.
For brands, before investing in publicity costs, startups should protect their brands. Prior trademark searches can help them avoid legal risks caused by passively relying on prior trademarks.
For technology and business models, protection should be sought through patents and trade secrets, adopting different protection measures according to different purposes. Intellectual property protection and business goals need to be consistent. Ultimately, development is always the first priority for a company.

Bra:
As a partner of Tencent Cloud, do you have any good suggestions for future cooperation with Tencent Cloud? By leveraging the strengths of both sides, what differentiated services can we provide to users in the field of intellectual property?

Yangfei Chao:
IP Master and Tencent Cloud have a very good foundation and a broad future for commercial cooperation, and the pace and efficiency of promotion can be accelerated.
Combined, we can bring users comprehensive solutions to trademark full life-cycle risk and demand monitoring, copyright full electronic application, intellectual property transactions and assetization, patent quality control, and intellectual property intelligent custody.

Bra:
Speaking of artificial intelligence, there's also a question about the ethical conflict between artificial intelligence and intellectual property. Recently, it's been popular to use artificial intelligence for literary creation, video and image creation, and code programming. I'm curious, can robots be considered legal authors if they participate in creation? Who owns the works created by robots? Will they be protected by copyright, patent, and copyright law? Regarding algorithms and big data involved in robots, how should their intellectual property be protected?"

Yangfei Chao:
The current intellectual property legal protection system is "human-centered", with the starting point and foothold based on humans. Intellectual property itself is based on whether intellectual property has innovativeness/originality as the basic standard. Humans have the ability to think and be inspired, creating intellectual property with originality and enjoying a series of rights brought by intellectual property.
If the era of strong artificial intelligence arrives and AI can independently create literary works, this will be a huge challenge and impact on the existing intellectual property legal system, and the entire intellectual property legal system will be reconstructed.
If robots capable of creative labor truly emerge, the more critical question facing us than "Is this their creation?" is probably "Are you human?" Algorithms and big data should still be protected based on algorithm invention patents.

Bra:
The intellectual property market has huge potential. What do you think the intellectual property industry will look like in the next 5 years? How will the digitalization and intelligence of intellectual property develop and change?

Yangfei Chao:
China's intellectual property industry will penetrate every aspect of market economic life from both breadth and depth, with an economic scale exceeding one trillion; intellectual property resources and market economic entity needs will be fully integrated, the liquidity and assetization of intangible assets will accelerate, and economic value will be highlighted; platform-type enterprises with large-scale, low-cost service capabilities and core intellectual property data commercial operation capabilities will be greatly released.

Bra AsksYangfei Chao: Who Owns the Copyright to Novels Written by AI?

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Bra Asks Yuhang Jia: Saying Goodbye to "Artificial Stupidity"? AI Training Data Providers Rectify the Names of AI

Sam Ng — Wed, 01 May 2024 08:45:59 +0000

Guest: Yuhang Jia
Yuhang Jia, the general Manager at Cloud Testing Service (CTS), has extensive experience in market research for B2B enterprise services. In 2015, he established the North American Division of Testin.net, overseeing overseas markets and cutting-edge technology research and development. In 2017, he founded the business unit of AI Data Collection and Annotation, providing high-quality, scenario-based data collection and annotation services for AI, focusing on resolving the training data needs for AI implementation.
Hosted by Sam Ng (AKA: Bra)
Founder of ServBay, Secken and DNSPod, former General Manager of the SME Product Center at Tencent Cloud, cybersecurity expert, domain and DNS technology expert, webmaster, China Europe International Business School (CEIBS) EMBA.

Bra:
When did you first start exploring AI? What made you decide to delve into the niche field of AI data later on?

Yuhang Jia:

I’ve been closely following AI developments, from early voice interactions like Siri, to AlphaGo which sparked market-wide discussions, and various speculations about the future of AI.
What really struck me was an American health AI product, ActiveProtective. It's a wearable airbag that deploys to protect the wearer's lumbar and pelvic bones when a 3D motion sensor detects a fall.
ActiveProtective, now renamed Tango, is a wearable smart airbag belt. Previously, AI was seen as helping humans reduce repetitive labor or replace humans in dangerous tasks. ActiveProtective added a layer of care for humans, enhancing happiness through technological capabilities. Since then, I've believed in the tremendous potential of AI and wanted to contribute to accelerating the implementation of AI products.
Choosing the AI training data segment aligned with Testin's initial testing services, where project management mindset and toolchain management adapt well to current data collection and annotation operations. Additionally, after a decade in enterprise services with a vast user base from the mobile internet and traditional industries, these users are now also aiming to use AI for digital transformation.

Bra:
In 2015, you were responsible for overseas markets and cutting-edge technology R&D at Testin's North American Division. Having insight into AI technology development in both China and the US, how significant do you find the gap between China and the US in AI technology? What advanced experiences from abroad can be learned?

Yuhang Jia:
From a media perspective, there are some differences in the development focus of AI between China and the US. For example, in autonomous driving, Western, especially US, companies tend to focus on edge intelligence, making independent judgments based on edge computing and perception results; China leans towards vehicular networks, emphasizing an interconnected ecosystem and collaborative perception between vehicles and roads. In research areas, China has a broader range of application scenarios, accelerated by a series of policy supports for AI application implementation.
For a B2B service company like us, it's more important to learn from the ecosystem perspective. Testin's mission is to facilitate industrial intelligence. In the global trend of industrial upgrading, we provide a comprehensive service combining core technology, product tools, and professional talents to accelerate the digital and intelligent transformation of enterprises, improving operational efficiency, reducing costs, enhancing product quality, ensuring information security, and injecting new growth momentum into various industries.

Bra:
Data, computing power, and algorithms are said to be three driving forces to stimulate the development of AI's underlying technology. Testin.net is a top AI training data service provider in China, with data annotation accuracy reaching up to 99.99%. How is such high accuracy achieved? What supports this achievement?

Yuhang Jia:
AI datasets are created from raw data, where valuable data is selected and annotated to become datasets for AI training, resulting in high-quality AI.
As China's AI industry enters the commercial application stage, there's a strong demand for scenario-based, refined data. High annotation accuracy is both an industry requirement and a direction we, as a leading AI data service provider, must exemplify. Our high accuracy is based on three aspects:
First, strength. Testin boasts a comprehensive, efficient annotation platform for all types of knowledge products, streamlining every data processing request; it empowers industries with a suite of integrated services from platform development, data scenario labs, data delivery centers, and professional team building to efficient organizational collaboration, ensuring high-quality AI data processing.
Second, capability, referring to multi-dimensional data processing capabilities. As a leading AI data service provider, CTS Data supports all categories of vision, speech, and text, adapting to changing demands across these AI algorithm dimensions with higher precision support. Additionally, Testin incorporates auxiliary quality inspection tools in its tools, setting safeguards for data accuracy enhancement based on annotation project requirements.
Third, solutions. Testin's deep tech development and industry understanding contribute to industrial empowerment. Testin has developed training data service solutions for smart cities, smart homes, intelligent driving, smart finance, and AIoT, accelerating high-quality AI application implementations across industries.
These achievements are the result of Testin's continuous effort and technological investment. Rooted in market practice, Testin pioneers in business strategy and cutting-edge tech exploration, forming a complete AI data service chain of "collection, annotation, management, and storage." Meanwhile, focusing on serving, understanding, and guiding customers based on our business capabilities, we help clients build their foundational and cornerstone capacities.
Thus, Testin's comprehensive strength in technology, service quality, assurance, efficiency, and customer satisfaction leads the industry’s recognition.

Bra:
Testin developed a data processing platform named "Testin Annotation Platform 4.0," automating task flows from data collection to delivery for various roles. Why develop such a platform? What role does it play in AI development?

Yuhang Jia:
Our aim in the data business is industry leadership, necessitating excellence in technology experience, delivery capacity, customer satisfaction, accuracy, and scale. As the saying goes, "To do a good job, one must first sharpen one's tools." Without a large-scale, efficient collaborative workstation, these goals are unattainable.
Testin Annotation Platform (version 4.0) provides enterprises with the capability to handle large-scale sensory data. Through innovative structure, intelligentization, engineering, and standardization, the platform empowers the AI training data industry, stimulating data value in terms of quality and efficiency, accelerating AI technological innovation, and advancing AI industry scenario-based implementations.
Technologically, the Testin Annotation Platform features multi-end data support, AI-assisted quality inspection, comprehensive annotation tool support, efficient and standardized operations, deep integration with enterprise processes, and quality control in annotation processes. It supports quick data retrieval, data version management, and visualization of annotation results, meeting diverse and rich data needs for AI landing scenarios, improving overall efficiency in AI data training by 200%.
Tool-wise, the platform supports one-stop processing for data types like images, texts, voices, videos, and point clouds, equipped with professional tools such as 3D boxes, point cloud semantic segmentation, feature points, lines, rectangles, curves, planar boxes, polygons, etc., flexibly meeting various annotation needs and facilitating data processing implementation in coordination with algorithm models, quickly responding to diverse AI training demands.
By empowering tools through the Testin Annotation Platform, enterprises gain the capability to handle large-scale sensory data, shortening data collection cycles, enhancing data annotation efficiency, and significantly reducing AI model training costs. This helps enterprises achieve unprecedented accuracy in data recognition, greatly accelerating the AI landing and iteration cycle, saving considerable R&D time and costs.

Bra:
High-quality data relies on a team of excellent data annotators, yet the turnover rate is high, and experienced talents are scarce in this industry. How do you address this challenge?

Yuhang Jia:
We address turnover from two aspects.
First, we lower the entry barrier to the industry through pre-job training and toolchains, making data annotation simpler, thus broadening our recruitment pool and enabling more people to quickly adapt to their roles.
Second, we've established a performance incentive management system, creating a gradient for our annotators so they're not stuck in repetitive labor. Instead, based on their work outcomes, they receive corresponding incentives or opportunities for advancement at different levels.

Bra:
With major companies like Tencent Cloud, Alibaba Cloud, and Baidu Intelligent Cloud entering the data collection and annotation service market, do you feel pressured?

Yuhang Jia:
We feel no pressure, but rather excitement.
The entry of these cloud providers indicates the industry's recognition of the AI data sector. The more participants, the larger the market grows, which positively impacts us.
We're actively exploring ecosystem collaborations. At last week's Tencent Digital Ecosystem Summit, Tencent launched its autonomous driving cloud platform and announced its ecosystem partners, with us being the only AI training data service provider. This collaboration between Tencent's autonomous driving cloud and Testin is based on the leading technology of the Testin Data Annotation Platform.
Just like the popular "metaverse" concept, relying on cloud computing technology, major cloud providers can offer fertile ground. AI data services are the infrastructure on this ground, and we look forward to more participants joining in building the foundation, allowing the digital ecosystem to thrive.

Bra:
It seems you've covered all services in the AI data track, including data collection, annotation, and even developing an annotation platform. What untapped opportunities remain in this track?

Yuhang Jia:
When mentioning AI data, people first think of data collection, cleaning, and annotation, which are the production stages of AI data. However, we've noticed many companies can produce data but don't know how to efficiently utilize it. This is where the value of data management becomes apparent, making extending into whole data storage and management the next big trend. With foresight, we've developed an AI Dataset Management System.
Testin's AI Data Management System allows for iterative validation of algorithm directions through algorithm iterations. For instance, if an autonomous driving vision perception company finds poor machine recognition in snowy conditions, how can it specifically train the related algorithm with data? The data management system's tagging feature can quickly extract and validate corresponding snowy data from the existing database, achieving more efficient data management.
In fact, after observing numerous cases, we've found that companies utilizing the AI Data Management System accelerate their operational rhythm and iterative cycles, transitioning from waterfall to agile development, achieving more efficient data management. This underscores the significance of the AI Dataset Management System.

Bra:
You've launched an autonomous driving training data solution, offering a one-stop solution for intelligent driving training data needs from early development to implementation. Testin is a partner of Tencent Autonomous Driving Cloud and serves many leading intelligent car customers. Based on your experience, what are the requirements for training autonomous driving AI data?

Yuhang Jia:
Our intelligent driving solution is divided into three parts, corresponding to three different stages of development:
The first stage is the algorithm pre-research period, verifying the feasibility of the algorithm. We provide Testin's proprietary basic dataset to assist enterprises in preliminary research.
The second stage is data cold start, based on the algorithm's corresponding sensors and scenarios. Through data collection, cleaning, and annotation, we ensure a dataset is available for algorithm iteration and development. Testin's scenario lab and annotation base are capable of meeting the precision and scale requirements, offering customized collection and annotation services.
The third stage is product launch, where the product has already accumulated some online production data. We assist enterprises in data collection, annotation, and management processes through toolchains and onsite services, facilitating their own iterations.
Data service companies providing solutions for automakers and the automotive industry must possess at least three capabilities:
First, large data volume. Given the complexity of scenarios faced by cars in any environment, sufficient data volume is essential.
Second, coverage of diverse vertical domains to encompass as many different scenarios as possible.
Third, multi-dimensional sensor fusion data processing capability. What is multi-dimensional sensing? For example, driving on a highway with endless mountains and blue sky ahead, when a sky-blue car appears in front, visual sensors alone cannot make the judgment. Adding millimeter-wave radar and lidar is necessary to establish a perception system in the 3D coordinate system and identify obstacles ahead.
Some companies, like Tesla, primarily rely on visual sensors, while others focus on lidar. Testin can assist related enterprises in better environmental perception, improving distance measurement accuracy, planning routes more effectively, and customizing data collection, cleaning, and annotation solutions based on different sensors.

Bra:
Early this month, national regulation tightened with the official implementation of the "Personal Information Protection Law of the People's Republic of China." The AI data field involves extensive data collection, requiring constant attention to policy trends and legal regulations. Has the "Personal Information Protection Law" impacted you? How do you implement data security?

Yuhang Jia:
The "Personal Information Protection Law" mainly targets industries related to personal information security. For AI data service providers, the industry and operational processes are more clearly regulated, which positively influences us.
In terms of data security, we hold ISO9001, ISO27001, ISO27701, CMMI3 certifications, complying with relevant data privacy and security regulations. Additionally, Testin has security testing and penetration testing experts safeguarding our platform architecture. Beyond technical privacy and security measures, Testin emphasizes employee responsibility and standards in data collection and annotation, assisting enterprises in understanding data security and privacy requirements through training and coaching.

Bra:
What are Testin's future development plans? What technological innovations can we look forward to?

Yuhang Jia:
In response to AI data industry trends, Testin has devised a "horizontal and vertical" plan:
The "horizontal" aspect involves deepening our focus on five key areas—driving, finance, home, smart cities, and AIoT—providing professional AI data solutions to customers. We're also actively exploring sectors like construction and retail, aiming to apply our AI data service experience to more industries with growth potential.
The "vertical" aspect starts from the perspective of customer needs, enhancing efficiency across all data-related segments. As these areas continue to develop, Testin will persist in strategic deployment, strengthening our solution and service capabilities to ensure breakthroughs in these industries, allowing Testin to meet related customer needs.

Bra AsksYuhang Jia: Saying Goodbye to "Artificial Stupidity"? AI Training Data Providers Rectify the Names of AI

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Bra Asks Tombkeeper: From 'Saint Gynecologist' to Elite Hacker, The Legendary Journey of a T5 Tech Wizard

Sam Ng — Wed, 17 Apr 2024 07:09:40 +0000

Guest: Yu Yang (AKA: Tombkeeper, TK教主)
Tombkeeper is the founder of Tencent Security Xuanwu Lab, member of the Advisory Committee of Cyberspace Security Teaching in Higher Education, member of the Cybersecurity Expert Advisory Group of ICSTC of MIIT, and member of the Cryptography Standardization Technical Committee. He has received the CNCERT/CC's "Olympic Information Security Support Individual First-Class Award" and the "Outstanding Young Engineer Award" from the ISEFC. Tombkeeper is one of the three global winners of the Microsoft Mitigation Bypass Bounty and Bounty for Defense Program, winning a grand prize of $100,000. He is the only nominee from Asia for "Most Innovative Research of Pwnie Awards" in its ten-year history.
Hosted by Sam Ng (aka: Bra)
Founder of ServBay, Secken and DNSPod, former General Manager of the SME Product Center at Tencent Cloud, cybersecurity expert, domain and DNS technology expert, webmaster, China Europe International Business School (CEIBS) EMBA.

Bra:
Having graduated from medical school, the normal path for you would have been to become a doctor healing the sick. Yet, now you've become a tech guru in the field of cybersecurity, known in the hacker community as the "Saint Gynecologist." What made you give up medicine to pursue cybersecurity? Is there any common ground between the two?

Tombkeeper:
Both cybersecurity and medicine interest me as facets of technology, so I don't see a significant difference between the two. The main reason I chose cybersecurity over medicine is the accessibility of research conditions. While medical research requires extensive resources, all you need for cybersecurity is a computer. In fact, medicine is akin to the cybersecurity of the human body, and cybersecurity is like medicine for computers.
There are many similarities, such as the need for diagnosis in both fields, where the thought processes involved share common ground. Additionally, just as cybersecurity products build defenses based on attack characteristics, vaccines are developed based on the characteristics of pathogens.

Bra:
The recent news about Jiuzhang quantum computer has attracted widespread attention, suggesting that quantum computing's immense power might bring about a new revolution in information technology. Do you think the advent of quantum computing could render current security mechanisms obsolete? How do you view the future direction of security technology in light of this?

Tombkeeper:
Currently, the most significant threat quantum computing poses to cybersecurity is the potential to crack asymmetric encryption. If quantum computing becomes practical, existing algorithms like RSA could become vulnerable. However, there's no need for alarm as defense technologies, such as post-quantum cryptography, which are resistant to quantum computing attacks, have already been under research, offering many alternative solutions.
It's crucial to switch to post-quantum cryptography well before practical quantum computers are developed, as attackers could store encrypted data now to decrypt it once quantum computing is available. Therefore, we need to predict when practical quantum computers will emerge and switch to post-quantum cryptography well in advance to ensure the data's value is diminished by the time it becomes decryptable.

Bra:
A few months ago, you discovered a system security flaw in the MacBook Air equipped with the M1 processor that allowed root access to be obtained in seconds. This was the first discovered vulnerability affecting Apple Silicon chip devices. Can you share how you and your team quickly and accurately found this vulnerability? And what advice do you have for Apple fans?

Tombkeeper:
This vulnerability wasn't discovered after the M1 version MacBook Air was released. We found it earlier and realized it affected not only macOS but also iOS, suggesting it might also impact the M1 MacBook Air. Our tests confirmed this after the device's release. The discovery and handling of this vulnerability were primarily between vulnerability researchers and product developers. Apple fans should treat it as tech news, stay informed, and ensure their systems are promptly updated without undue concern.

Bra:
Security is paramount in the development and deployment of systems, yet the investment in security must balance time and human resource costs, especially for small and medium-sized enterprises where cost control is critical. How can one assess if a system's security is adequate? Is there a "passing grade" for security? What are your recommendations?

Tombkeeper:
The extent of security protection needed is related to the threats faced, which in turn depends on the attacker's interest level. Large companies, with more data and higher value, naturally attract more interest from attackers. However, interest from attackers doesn't always correlate directly with company size; for example, cryptocurrency-related businesses may not be large but are highly attractive to attackers, facing significant threats.
It's challenging to precisely evaluate whether a system's security is sufficient. However, compared to Western countries, the proportion of network security investment in IT costs among Chinese companies is relatively low.

Bra:
You once quoted Woon Swee Oan: "If a person wants to assassinate another, as long as they are patient enough, ruthless enough, and choose the right moment, even the most skilled person cannot defend themselves." In your view, does this mean all systems have flaws? What's the biggest challenge in security, and how should we approach it?

Tombkeeper:
When we evaluate a system's security, we look at the current moment without considering the dimension of time. However, attackers do not necessarily need to succeed right now; succeeding within three months, a year, or two years is still a victory for them.
Over such periods, new vulnerabilities could emerge, new attack methods could be developed, or attackers could infiltrate through the supply chain. The biggest challenge in defense is not just battling technology but also time. The most difficult part of security isn't achieving a high level of security at a specific moment but maintaining long-term security over an extended period.

Bra:
Recently, a girl in Chengdu(capital of Sichuan province) diagnosed with COVID-19 was cyberbullied, with her name, ID number, home address, and photos leaked and widely circulated online. From a cybersecurity perspective, how do you view this incident? How do you ensure the information security of ordinary people?

Tombkeeper:
First and foremost, this is an issue of management and human error. Those who had access to the data leaked it, highlighting the need for better education and management of relevant personnel. Technologically, however, we should also reflect.
For example, courier slips used to display all sender and recipient information, but many courier companies have started addressing this issue. Similarly, ride-hailing drivers used to see passengers' phone numbers directly in the system, which is no longer the case. While collecting personal information is necessary for epidemic prevention, is it possible to limit direct access to such information? Technological improvements could address this issue.

Bra:
The cybersecurity field is always in demand, seemingly valuing more experienced practitioners as "aging like fine wine." As one of the top security teams, what is the average age of Xuanwu Lab's team? Do you, as leaders in the field, also experience age-related anxieties?

Tombkeeper:
Most members of Xuanwu Lab joined through campus recruitment, making our team quite young, with an average age of under 30. The cybersecurity industry requires experience and accumulation of knowledge. Many IT jobs can be broken down and operated like manufacturing, but security often demands a holistic understanding.
The value of veteran engineers in this industry is irreplaceable. I'm the oldest in the team, yet I still directly contribute to the lab's work. For example, our research on fast charger security began with my preliminary work. When the team reported a lack of success after some time, I pointed out that they had indeed succeeded; they just needed to adjust their technical approach based on a more systematic understanding of security. I believe the young people in our team will continue to play significant roles in the industry as they reach my age.

Bra:
Your team explores a wide range of areas, from software to hardware, from applications to networks, mastering them all. How do you and your team choose your "next" target? For unfamiliar fields, do you worry about investing too much without achieving results?

Tombkeeper:
Our research principle is value-driven, practicality-oriented. When selecting research directions, we consider the value to Tencent and society. About 60% of our work directly serves Tencent's business, though this is generally not visible to the public due to the nature of security work. The remaining 40% is societal-focused, which is more visible. Security research requires continuous learning, so unfamiliar fields are not an issue for us.
For instance, some team members who worked on the fast charger research had no prior hardware experience before joining Xuanwu Lab. Research inevitably involves the risk of failure, but we manage this risk through thorough preliminary research, regular reviews, and timely cessation. The most crucial aspect is the initial feasibility assessment of our targets. Since its establishment, Xuanwu Lab has only chosen the wrong direction "0.5 times," because even though one project didn't achieve the expected results, we published a blog detailing why it was unfeasible, which proved valuable to researchers in related fields and was even cited in a top conference paper.

Bra:
Leadership style determines team style. Not only is your team capable of anything, but you yourself are a polymath—a "jack-of-all-trades" in cybersecurity with a medical background, able to crack jokes, and boasting tens of thousands of followers on Weibo and Zhihu. Can you share your learning experience with young people? How do you excel in your field?

Tombkeeper:
I indeed have a wide range of interests, but not everyone needs to. Everyone has their unique strengths and personality traits. By leveraging these, one can excel in their team and find their place in society. Learning boils down to the ability to acquire and absorb information, so it's worth focusing on developing these skills, such as learning to use search engines effectively and reading quickly. Improving these abilities will facilitate learning across various domains.

Bra:
Over the past decade, China's internet has evolved from the "ancient times" to a more civilized era. As someone who has experienced and witnessed this transformation, how do you think the battle for cybersecurity in China has changed technically over the past ten years? What do you foresee for the next decade in cybersecurity development?

Tombkeeper:
This is a vast topic, so I can only touch on it briefly here. The logic behind cybersecurity changes can be summarized as evolving with digital technology and driven by the dynamics of offense and defense. The past decade saw the shift from desktop to mobile and from endpoint to cloud, leading to a focus on mobile and cloud security. The emergence of ransomware, supply chain attacks, and other new threats also shifted the cybersecurity focus. The next decade will likely follow this logic. If we consider 5G, AI, and IoT as the direction of digital technology in the next ten years, then the development of cybersecurity will undoubtedly relate to these areas.

Bra Asks Tombkeeper: From 'Saint Gynecologist' to Elite Hacker, The Legendary Journey of a T5 Tech Wizard

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Bra Asks Geng Le: The IPO Journey of a Leading Homosexuality Social Platform

Sam Ng — Tue, 16 Apr 2024 16:21:43 +0000

Guest: Ma Baoli (AKA: Geng Le)
Founder, Chairman, and CEO of BlueCity (Nasdaq: BLCT) and founder of the Danlan Public Interest. In 2012, Geng Le resigned from his police officer position to start his own business, launching the world-leading LGBTQ community product Blued. In 2016, he was shortlisted for the Boldness in Business by the Financial Times. In 2017, he was selected for the Global Thinkers list by the American magazine Foreign Policy. In May 2020, Geng Le was recognized as a "Beijing Role Model." In July, BlueCity went public on Nasdaq, becoming the "first stock of the global pink economy." In September, Geng Le was selected for the Business Insider list of 100 Business Transformers in Asia.

Hosted by Sam Ng (AKA: Bra)
Founder of ServBay, Secken and DNSPod, former General Manager of the SME Product Center at Tencent Cloud, cybersecurity expert, domain and DNS technology expert, webmaster, China Europe International Business School (CEIBS) EMBA.

Bra:
In 2012, with the explosive popularity of WeChat, various social platforms were launched one after another. However, homosexual dating was an area few dared to venture into. What made you think of creating a social platform like Blued at that time?

Geng Le:
2012 was a special year in the history of China's mobile internet development.
On the one hand, China's mobile phone market transitioned from feature phones to smartphones, with the market share of smartphones reaching 51.3% in the second quarter of 2012, surpassing feature phones for the first time, according to research firm IDC. On the other hand, the embryonic forms of super apps, including WeChat, emerged, and traditional websites began to migrate to the mobile internet in terms of content.
The precursor to Blued was a website I founded in 2000 called "Danlan," one of China's earliest and most influential LGBTQ online community. At that time, I believed that the PC internet would rapidly iterate to the mobile internet and saw the immense opportunities it presented. Therefore, in 2012, I launched the mobile homosexual social platform Blued. Unlike other heterosexual dating platforms, the most attractive feature of a homosexual platform is the ability to find people like oneself based on geographic location, whereas heterosexual dating can be achieved through many channels and methods.

Bra:
Over the past eight years, Blued has undergone several transformations, from an early website forum to the current social platform, gradually introducing membership services, health services, and more. What are the main reasons for these changes, such as market positioning or the influence of the times?

Geng Le:
Initially, Blued was an LBS-based social app that helped more members of the sexual minority community find people like themselves. As more users began using our product, we started to enhance Blued's community attributes to meet everyone's needs in entertainment, health, and personalized expression, among other areas. For example, we provided users with features like live streaming, super topics, and bases to meet their entertainment needs; in 2019, we launched the Mr. Heer to provide professional and private health solutions for users.
On the other hand, compared to the heterosexual community, the LGBTQ community's needs in socializing, entertainment, and life were not well met, and the pink economy itself contains huge market opportunities. We hope to provide comprehensive services for the global LGBTQ community.

Bra:
I understand that live streaming currently makes up a significant portion of Blued's revenue. Indeed, from the early forum to today's live streaming, Blued's product form has undergone a "major transition." During this process of product form change, what stages has Blued's business model gone through?

Geng Le:
Blued is in a completely new track, and we can only feel our way forward, which inevitably requires more exploration. In 2016, we launched our live streaming business, which is currently BlueCity's most important revenue source. Blued is also exploring more diversified revenue models.
Currently, our membership income, advertising income, and other incomes are growing rapidly, and we will prove the commercial value of vertical communities with more diversified income in the future.

Bra:
With the popularity of Blued, various social platforms targeting the LGBTQ community seem to have emerged in abundance, yet none have been able to shake Blued's position as the champion of domestic homosexual social software.
What do you think allows Blued to maintain its leading position in the long term, and what are its moats?

Geng Le:
I always believe that BlueCity is a startup truly rooted in the sexual minority community; we can feel and understand the real needs of this group. From Danlan to Blued, we have always hoped to provide a space for our users to express themselves, allowing everyone to have the courage to face themselves, face this complicated world, and bravely pursue their inner selves and a beautiful future. In terms of competitive advantages, unlike other competitors with a single social function, we are committed to providing LGBTQ users with comprehensive products and services throughout their life cycle. For example, Danlan Public Interest is BlueCity's corporate social responsibility platform, which uses the internet advantage to provide public health services for HIV prevention and treatment. Mr. Heer focuses on men's health, providing convenient and professional internet health services.

Bra:
GitHub is currently the largest open-source software repository in the world. Due to its predominantly male user base and built-in social features, many people jokingly refer to it as the "largest homosexual dating platform in the world." Do you think if such tools with strong user stickiness venture into social networking, it would be a "dimensional strike" against Blued?

Geng Le:
No. Tools like GitHub are relatively loose interest exchange platforms based on technical topics.
Given the LGBTQ community's unique characteristics, Blued is distinctly different from general internet companies in both business model and corporate culture.

Bra:
Currently, Blued mainly serves male customers. How do you view the female homosexual social market, and does BlueCity (Blued's parent company) have any plans to enter this market?

Geng Le:
In terms of population size, female sexual minorities account for about 40% of the total LGBTQ population (including lesbians and bisexual women). According to a Frost & Sullivan research report, the global LGBTQ population exceeds 450 million, with nearly 200 million female sexual minorities. In terms of user behavior, LGBTQ community members have similar situations and needs, but there are still differences among different subgroups within the community.
BlueCity is an internet company dedicated to providing comprehensive services for the LGBTQ community throughout their life cycle, including the establishment of Mr. Heer and family planning-related businesses based on this strategy.
Previously, we mainly served the male homosexual community, but lesbians are also a group we research and focus on. Not long ago, we completed the acquisition of the female vertical community LESDO, BlueCity's first acquisition since going public and the first acquisition in China's LGBTQ field. We have advantages in the male homosexual market, with our own set of mature models in technology, talent, capital, and market operations. We hope to have a more professional team to provide professional and intimate services for the lesbian community.

Bra:
Many people may not know that before founding Blued, you were a public servant. The pandemic in 2020 made many people lament that it's better to have a "guaranteed income" within the system. However, others say the system is a wall, and they want to give up the "iron rice bowl" to try a new career path. Compared to you eight years ago, do you think the cost of trial and error for them is higher now?

Geng Le:
No matter what environment you work in, the most important thing is to realize your own value and social value through work practice. The cost of trial and error is objectively present. Making any choice requires thorough preparation and a strong inner self.

Bra:
Going public can be said to be a highlight moment for Blued's parent company, BlueCity, but it also means that you will face more scrutiny from all walks of life in the future. Personally, does this bring you additional pressure?

Geng Le:
Going public represents the maturity and recognition of BlueCity's business and business model, a milestone event in the company's development, with profound social significance.
For me personally, pressure is also a motivation. Going public means that BlueCity and this community have moved from the margins to the forefront, from hiding to the sunlight, which is a subtle change. I just feel the burden on my shoulders is heavier.

Bra:
The term "rainbow economy" has gradually become popular in recent years. There is a saying: "Apart from women's and children's money, the easiest money to earn is from the LGBT community." Because most businesses lack understanding of this group, in a situation where supply is insufficient, products and services that can meet the needs of sexual minorities (LGBT) are in high demand. How do you view the rainbow economy? Can you give us a rough estimate of how big this market is?

Geng Le:
For a long time, the needs of sexual minorities were not well met, which actually contains considerable opportunities.
According to a Frost & Sullivan report, in 2018, the global LGBTQ population was about 450 million, accounting for 5.9% of the total population. Based on consumer spending and marketing expenditures, the global online LGBTQ market size was 261.5 billion in 2018, expected to reach 580.4 billion by 2023, with a compound annual growth rate of 17.3%. E-commerce, online advertising, online travel (OTA), and pan-entertainment will be rapidly growing segments.

Bra:
As the founder of Blued, I believe you are very sensitive to domestic public opinion trends about this group. Do you think that in the past ten years, people have become harsher or more tolerant of sexual minorities (LGBT)?

Geng Le:
Overall, it is definitely more tolerant, and this change is subtle. As a domestic internet company in China, BlueCity's listing on Nasdaq as the first stock of the global pink economy is the best proof.

Bra:
In China, there are not many institutions and companies that can openly support sexual minorities (LGBT). With Blued's listing, it means that the product and BlueCity's influence are further expanding. What plans do we have for serving more sexual minorities in the future?

Geng Le:
As an internet company focused on serving the LGBTQ community, we will explore more new product and service models based on user needs in the future.
In terms of horizontal expansion in the circle, we completed the acquisition of the female vertical community LESDO in the second quarter. The LESDO founding team is composed of several female sexual minority members, who have more acute user insights and valuable operational experience in providing internet services for female sexual minority users. After LESDO joins, BlueCity will better realize the vision of "providing comprehensive services for the LGBTQ community throughout their life cycle."
At the same time, we will also increase our investment in the public welfare field, promoting diversity and social recognition of minority groups in a broader community and establishing a positive image for the LGBTQ community.

Bra:
Having worked on this product for nearly ten years, you must have heard many stories about your users. Are there any stories that have particularly moved you?

Geng Le:
There are many stories. A few days ago, I received a handwritten letter, which is rare nowadays. The writing was very beautiful, spanning several pages. The sender lives in a small city and, through using our product, met someone they love and are now very happy.

Bra Asks Geng Le: The IPO Journey of a Leading Homosexuality Social Platform

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Bra Asks Liang Ding'an: The Second Spring of Manufacturing Industry Awakened by the Industrial Internet

Sam Ng — Wed, 10 Apr 2024 14:56:12 +0000

Guest: Liang Ding'an
General Manager of Intelligent Manufacturing at Tencent Cloud. He is primarily responsible for the development of solutions and products related to enterprise digital transformation, intelligent manufacturing, and the industrial internet. He has previously served as the Technical Director and Product Director of the Tencent PCG, a technical operations expert at Tencent, and a core technical operations standard expert at the CAICT (China Academy of Information and Communications Technology).

Hosted by Sam Ng (aka: Bra)
Founder of ServBay, Secken and DNSPod, former General Manager of the SME Product Center at Tencent Cloud, cybersecurity expert, domain and DNS technology expert, webmaster, China Europe International Business School (CEIBS) EMBA.

Bra:
From what I understand, you were previously in charge of DevOps team for Tencent's social platforms, with 10 years of experience in operations development, massive DevOps, and architectural planning. You were primarily responsible for the operations development and operations planning of social platform services like Qzone, Photo Albums, and Music, specializing in the architectural design and automated DevOps of mass services. Previously, your focus was more on ToC, which is comparatively lighter compared to your current focus on intelligent manufacturing. How do you think your past experiences have helped you in your current role?

Liang Ding'an:
The two business areas are worlds apart. Traditional internet companies rely on IT technological innovations to lead their entire business models forward, especially in the consumer internet sector, which is easier to understand. For instance, consumer internet companies rarely have sales departments; they focus on developing good products that speak for themselves. In contrast, traditional industries, whether ToB or ToC, have sales channels and their own operational models.

Transitioning from internet technology to the industrial sector, we find ourselves relatively distant from the industry applications our customers need. Especially in manufacturing, where profits are generated through products reliant on production tools. Unlike the internet industry, which relies on servers and programs, manufacturing may require machinery like lathes and die-casting machines, involving some software but more often specialized industrial production control systems. For Tencent and myself, understanding customer application scenarios, providing appropriate solutions based on those scenarios, and serving industrial customers throughout the entire lifecycle — from research, production, supply, sale, to service—pose significant challenges.

In terms of business selection, we've moved from areas we excel in to those we are less familiar with. Initially, we worked with general internet customers, such as gaming, short videos, and live streaming, areas Tencent is involved in. Providing solutions for these sectors allowed for easy communication. Our next focus included government and financial customers. For example, our government customers ultimately serve citizens. Leveraging Tencent's natural connectivity advantage, like our work on Digital Guangdong and integrating Tencent WeChat's massive user connectivity with government services, offers citizens more effective and convenient services compared to traditional methods. Relying on technological innovation to reduce costs and increase efficiency, the financial industry experiences the same benefits. Previously, applying for a loan at a bank required submitting numerous documents in person, but now it can be entirely resolved online. The financial industry directly benefits from the empowerment brought by cloud technology and science.

The manufacturing industry, as part of traditional sectors and encompassing various sub-industries, commands our respect. We do not expect to overcome their technological barriers overnight or fully grasp the core of their business within a year or two. Therefore, we have a clear positioning, seeking breakthroughs in these sub-industries, such as information systems, to truly delve into and empower the industry.

Bra:
With the national push for enterprise digital transformation, what kind of enterprises do you think need to undergo digitalization, or is it necessary for enterprises to do so? How does Tencent empower enterprises in their digital transformation journey?

Liang Ding'an:
In the past two years, the nation has advocated for enterprise digital transformation, but why is digital transformation necessary? In my view, there's an underlying logic. Digital transformation aims to interconnect data from various industries' production and operation processes with upstream and downstream of the industry, ultimately discovering new business models, reducing costs, increasing efficiency, and enhancing the competitiveness of enterprises in their vertical domains.

In the process of enterprise digitalization, despite the diverse attributes of our customers' industries, there are commonalities. At the most basic level, it's whetherm the customer's existing systems can be integrated into the cloud, which represents our fundamental collaboration point with enterprises.

Looking back, manufacturing enterprises are large, and even if their IT scale is limited, they can still be empowered by the cloud. However, for large enterprises with robust capital and mature infrastructure, they have the capability and funds to maintain their infrastructure. So why should they move to the cloud? When their pain point shifts from whether to use the cloud to how to enhance their business growth and competitiveness, our collaboration progresses to the next stage. Beyond basic cloud services, we provide C2B capabilities. C2B is a broad concept, extending to C2B2B and then to 2C. Through digital means, we break down data silos and achieve information integration across the industry chain, enabling enterprises to better understand their end-users' application scenarios, needs, and motivations. This understanding allows enterprises to better plan their products, channels, distribution systems, and services for the upstream and downstream of the industry, thereby genuinely enhancing product competitiveness.

Bra:
Two years ago, Pony Ma(Founder of Tencent) proposed that "Tencent will root itself in the consumer internet and embrace the industrial internet" as a development strategy. How do you understand this strategy? The industrial internet and the industrial internet are intertwined to some extent. As a representative of the consumer internet, what role does the industrial internet play in Tencent's comprehensive embrace of the industrial internet?

Liang Ding'an:
This is a visionary strategy. In fact, before Pony proposed the industrial internet, the term was not widely known in the industry. One of the earliest terms was "Internet+", proposed by Pony during the Two Sessions (两会) in 2015. The concept of the industrial internet stems from our years of deep cultivation in the internet industry, encompassing "cloud computing, big data, mobile internet, the Internet of Things, and artificial intelligence."

Traditional enterprises are relatively weak in mobile office technology and other areas. Many large enterprises with significant revenue still use traditional paper-based office methods. Internet companies are considered agile because of the efficiency of IT. As mentioned in Tencent's documents, the requirements Pony raised at night could be released the next afternoon. In contrast, the deep-seated reason behind traditional enterprises' meetings, approvals, and visas is the lack of IT infrastructure and facilities to support digital transformation.

By proposing the industrial internet, we are not only solving specific problems but also facing them head-on. Our tactical diligence is merely a cover for strategic laziness. We hope that entrepreneurs and decision-makers across the industry will step back and view the current state of Chinese manufacturing. We are fortunate to cooperate with enterprises under the banner of the industrial internet, leveraging Tencent's platform to serve enterprises with industrial internet capabilities.

Bra:
At last year's Tencent Global Digital Ecosystem Summit (2020), Tencent Cloud Intelligent Manufacturing unveiled its three major strategic layouts for the first time and launched the "511" ecological plan. In the future, it will focus on the 5 major links of industrial manufacturing research, production, supply, sales, and service, joining hands with 100 partners to create 1,000 industry solutions. How is the progress of Tencent Cloud Intelligent Manufacturing so far? What new actions will be taken in 2021?

Liang Ding'an:
Tencent is clear about its strengths, hence the "511" ecological plan, aiming to play the role of an assistant. In 2010, Pony said that we would entrust half of our lives to our partners, and we have been practicing this principle until today.

Enterprise digital transformation undoubtedly requires computing power. Storage networks collect data, process, and utilize it, and Tencent provides an engine from an IP perspective to identify and solve problems.
In 2021, we will steadfastly implement this strategy, closely related to Tencent's corporate culture. We welcome and look forward to integrating with ecosystem partners, and we are particularly willing to share our years of experience in the consumer internet, such as our technological advantages, understanding of data, and insights into AI algorithms.

Bra:
Since Tencent Cloud developed intelligent manufacturing, several public cases have focused on large enterprises like SANY Group. What is the focus of Tencent Cloud Intelligent Manufacturing's development in this field? How do you consider empowering small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) in their intelligent manufacturing transformation?

Liang Ding'an:
Yes, this is a core topic that the Chinese industrial internet requires Tencent to address. Compared to large enterprises with abundant capital that can seek various suppliers to solve their problems, many small enterprises cannot access the latest information or find suitable solutions. Looking at some developments abroad, cloud-based enterprise SaaS services are prevalent, but domestically, we are still at a very preliminary stage.

For example, we launched Tencent's industrial internet platform in Zhangjiagang, introducing ecological partners based on this platform. We visited local enterprises one by one to understand their operational and production issues. Then, we matched these problems with our suppliers and solution library to introduce the most suitable solutions. So far, we have conducted more than 30 visits and surveys. Different regions have different business models. Some areas have low automation levels, making it challenging to implement large-scale model changes. We recommend mobile office solutions, which are popular. However, solutions suitable for Foxconn may not be cost-effective for them. At this time, Tencent has many ecological partners, such as Weimob, Wecom Manager, and DaoYi, to provide these solutions.

Bra:
If two leading enterprises with strong competitive relationships in the industry simultaneously choose Tencent, will there be any concerns?

Liang Ding'an:
First and foremost, Tencent is not their competitor; we are a sufficiently neutral third party. We mainly help them improve their business efficiency and reduce costs by facilitating communication between industries.

Bra:
As intelligent manufacturing, which deeply integrates digitalization and industrialization, becomes a significant trend in the transformation and upgrading of the global manufacturing industry, major internet giants have entered the field of intelligent manufacturing. With giants leading the way, what kind of development will China's and the world's manufacturing industry face?

Liang Ding'an:
In the industrial internet arena, there are several core players. The first category includes traditional companies like Siemens that already operate in this field. They produce equipment and naturally develop software and IoT solutions based on their equipment. The second category comprises software service providers, such as Aerospace Cloud Network and Inspur. The third category includes internet companies like Tencent, Alibaba, and Huawei. These three types of players each bring their unique strengths to intelligent manufacturing.

Bra:
Regarding the competition in intelligent manufacturing, what is Tencent's competitive advantage? What role does Tencent's intelligent manufacturing business team play in combining Tencent and the industry?

Liang Ding'an:
Tencent's core strength lies in our C2B capabilities, which help us better understand and connect with users by providing intelligent solutions. Additionally, our understanding of big data and the application of AI capabilities are our advantages.

When Pony proposed the industrial internet, he also clarified Tencent's position in the industrial internet as an assistant for enterprise digital transformation. We provide "cloud, big data, IoT, mobile, and AI" technological tools and ecological capabilities to support enterprise digital transformation and upgrading. Tencent has strong technological capabilities, previously confined to laboratories or the consumer internet. Finding scenarios to apply these capabilities in the industrial field is the role our intelligent manufacturing team plays. Therefore, our team includes individuals who understand Tencent, internet technology, industry technology, and business logic, helping more enterprises overcome obstacles on their digital transformation journey.

Bra:
With the widespread application of AI in various industries, AI not only significantly improves work efficiency but also greatly reduces labor costs. Facing the hollowing out of factories due to young people's changing job expectations, what is your opinion? As intelligent manufacturing develops to a certain extent, the supply relationship will inevitably change. What suggestions do you have for this structural transformation?

Liang Ding'an:
With societal changes, topics like machine replacement of human labor frequently arise in discussions about intelligent manufacturing. However, our research in enterprises shows that this is not the case.

The reason behind machine replacement is not that people are unwilling to work in factories. Nowadays, people believe that working as food delivery drivers, internet celebrities, or couriers can be more lucrative and offer more flexible schedules. So, what we actually see in enterprises is a lot of idle equipment. When I asked the owner if it was due to a lack of orders, he said it was because they couldn't recruit workers. The pandemic has exacerbated this issue. Many enterprises are ready to resume work and production but lack the workforce, presenting a significant problem.

Intelligent manufacturing cannot take huge strides at once; it must progress gradually. Looking at overseas examples, fewer people will be involved in certain jobs, such as agriculture, which is fully automated and mechanized abroad. Human labor is increasingly valuable because humans are the most flexible production tools and sources of productivity. Therefore, we should utilize human labor where it is most needed.

I believe that intelligent manufacturing has demonstrated its ability to bring efficiency improvements to manufacturing enterprises and society, rather than exaggerating its impact on employment. Regardless of intelligent manufacturing, people will continue to evolve in this direction, which is an inevitable trend.

Bra:
The industrial internet connects intelligent machines and integrates human-machine connections, software, and big data analysis to reshape the global industry, stimulate productivity, and make the world better, faster, safer, cleaner, and more economical. Can you introduce the advantages of industrial all-in-one machines in practical operation?

Liang Ding'an:
Why do we have an all-in-one machine product design? It is tailored to the inherent scenarios of manufacturing enterprises. For both IT and OT domains in groups and factories, the question is, why do we introduce all-in-one machines? Firstly, it lowers the threshold for enterprises to move to the cloud and reduces costs. Flexible models such as outright purchase or leasing also address certain scale requirements for computing power and storage capabilities.

Additionally, it helps us perform specific scenario data desensitization and processing. If allowed, it can quickly form a hybrid cloud, enabling enterprises to build a cloud that includes both large private clouds and public clouds. It offers a more flexible technical architecture, assisting enterprises in gradually establishing their digital foundation. This, I believe, is the core value of the all-in-one machine.

Bra Interviews Liang Ding'an: The Second Spring of Manufacturing Industry Awakened by the Industrial Internet

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Bra Asks - New Preface

Sam Ng — Wed, 10 Apr 2024 14:35:16 +0000

Hello everyone, I am the founder of ServBay and DNSPod, Sam Ng, my online nickname is "Bra".

The first edition of "Bra Asks" was published on May 20, 2020, and now it's 2024. Nearly four years have passed since that first edition. During these four years, China's national conditions and internet environment have undergone earth-shattering changes. We've experienced the COVID-19 pandemic, a sharp decline in China's economy, and massive layoffs in numerous internet companies. At the same time, a peculiar phenomenon has emerged: a large number of Chinese independent developers are going global.

Among these global-going Chinese, there are many elites from the Chinese internet industry who have achieved remarkable success over the years.

"Going global" is a term unique to the Chinese internet industry. It refers to Chinese internet companies and individuals expanding their business and expertise beyond China, especially exporting mature products and experiences developed over many years of internet evolution to foreign countries. The preferred destinations for going global include the United States and Europe, but the majority are in Southeast Asia, especially Singapore and Indonesia. In the past two to three years, the number of Chinese internet professionals immigrating to Singapore through various means, like the Employment Pass (EP) has been exponentially increasing, indirectly causing a rise in the cost of living in Singapore.

In 2023, I also chose to become part of the global-going forces.

Going global might be related to political and economic factors, but I personally believe the more significant reason is that the Chinese internet has already taken a global lead, especially in mobile internet, 5G, and cashless payments, far surpassing any other country in the world, including the United States. In China, there's no need to carry cash, robberies are rare, and incidents of cash or phone theft are virtually non-existent. This is impossible in any other country. The Chinese government even specifically introduced laws for foreigners, aiming to lower the costs for them to adopt electronic payments in China—because, in most places in China, if you use cash, you might not be able to make change. The mainstream payment methods in China are WeChat and Alipay, or rather, a QR code.

You heard right, a social media app is the mainstream payment tool in China. WhatsApp, Line, even Telegram, compared to WeChat, are a century behind.
WeChat carries the daily communications, payments, news, entertainment, and even the life events of the Chinese people.

Tencent Group has collaborated with Chinese government departments to move public services onto WeChat Mini Programs. Any Chinese person doesn't need to visit a government office or any offline government department, nor install any apps. They just need to scan a QR code, open a WeChat Mini Program, and can handle everything from birth to death on it. All they need to do is scan their face to prove the transaction is initiated by themselves. Every Chinese person has their own electronic identity.

Not to mention the new energy vehicles.

The only noteworthy new energy vehicle manufacturer in the U.S. is Tesla. But in China, there are countless: BYD, Li Auto, Huawei, NIO, XPeng, and the newly emerged Xiaomi. Many of these new energy vehicle companies share a common trait: their founders are from the internet industry, and their companies are imbued with internet DNA.

Li Xiang of Li Auto founded Autohome, a NYSE listed company, and he is also an internet angel investor.
Li Bin of NIO founded Bitauto and invested in over 40 internet companies.

He Xiaopeng of XPeng created UC Browser, which was acquired by Alibaba. He is also an internet angel investor and has even developed a flying car (eVTOL) that has entered the airworthiness certification stage.

Huawei and Xiaomi need no further explanation.
While Americans are using Tesla's FSD on the highways, Chinese people have grown accustomed to getting out of their cars at the entrance of a mall or community and letting the car drive itself into the underground parking lot to automatically find a parking space. This is not a science fiction scenario, but one of the features of the autonomous driving systems from Li Auto and XPeng, provided to customers for free without any extra subscription fees.

Traditional BBA (BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Audi) In China, it has become a symbol of poverty. There's a joke circulating in the Chinese internet community: "I'm so poor that I can only afford a BBA."—In China, the price of a BBA is now lower than that of a BYD.

In such an era, I believe Chinese entrepreneurs going global will bring a strong impact to the world. People worldwide will feel the achievements of China's development over the past 20 years, and all of this has nothing to do with politics.

This time, translating "Bra Asks" into English is also hoped to bring the thoughts of successful Chinese entrepreneurs to global readers, especially entrepreneurs. To show how Chinese entrepreneurs have survived and thrived in the changing political and economic landscape over the past 20 years, how they have developed and innovated under the pressure from the United States, and how they have surpassed the U.S. in many aspects.

Bra Asks - Preface

Sam Ng — Wed, 10 Apr 2024 14:21:55 +0000

This is not just a set of ten questions for the pioneers of our era, but also an important chapter witnessing the changes and progress within the roaring waves of China's internet development.

Hey guys, I am the founder of DNSPod and the host of the "Bra Asks" column, Sam Ng, where "Bra" is my online nickname.
Many people have asked me: "Bra, why did you, someone with a technical background, decide to start the column?"

Since being captivated by something called "Shi Ling Tong (视聆通, a service initiated by the Guangdong Provincial Data Communication Bureau in 1995. It was offered to users in Guangdong Province through a dial-up modem connection, providing internet access primarily to websites within Guangdong Province and China, along with selected international sites.)" in 1996 and entering the webmaster circle, founding DNSPod, and returning to Tencent, I've had a history of over two decades with the internet. Immersing myself in it, my deepest feeling is that change is the only constant. I've witnessed computers transitioning from an unaffordable novelty to a common household item, and eventually to a small screen everyone carries. The internet in China pulses through network nodes, connecting people to society and to everything around them, with the changing mediums reflecting the shifts of an entire era.

A moment that left a deep impression on me was when, although the TCP/IP protocol was born in the United States in the 1970s, it wasn't until 1994 that we established our first TCP/IP connection with the international internet, becoming a member of the global internet community. It took us over 20 years to catch up with the pace of internet development in other countries. By 2021, we can finally stand on the same starting line as countries and regions like the United States, Europe, and Japan. In the field of 5G, we are even leading the way.

It's safe to say that in the era of the industrial internet, we are no longer followers but leaders, marking a significant epochal opportunity. However, this opportunity is akin to pioneering hard work. Its broad prospects are obvious, but the challenges are also right in front of us: significant investments, high costs, and a lack of directional development guidelines. If the consumer internet is a 100-meter dash, then the industrial internet is a marathon without a visible finish line. This requires a group of revolutionarily optimistic pioneers. Many of my friends stand at this starting line, knowing only that the finish line will be met with endless cheers and applause.

Yet, during the long run, these pioneers need to solidify their current position, sell basic services to ensure the survival of their businesses or products, while also having a forward-looking mindset to plan a long-term blueprint for their operations. No one knows when dawn will break, and in anticipation of it, pioneers must consider how to "survive" until then. The results of the seventh census were released two days ago, showing a birth rate of 12 million in 2020, a full 18% decrease from 2019. With no more growth, the era of extensive growth supported by capital strength has passed, and the golden rules of the past 20 years are gradually losing their reference value. Now, more than ever, it relies on entrepreneurs to learn by trial and error. The future of internet products and business models will face more time for tempering and challenges. Therefore, I believe there needs to be someone to document the birth of new opportunities, the spiral rise of the industrial internet amidst doubts and development, and the pain, entanglement, and struggle of these Chinese pioneers, as these are significant snapshots of the development of China's industrial internet. Despite the abundance of financial and internet media interview channels, having been interviewed many times myself, those spectating from the shore can never match the profound experience of those in the water. Having immersed myself in this industry for over two decades, I hope to use my business acumen, knowledge, and understanding of companies to take readers through the growth of a company from the perspective of the general public, to understand the operational logic of a new model, new business, and new era.

Besides its documenting significance, I also hope that "Bra Asks" will become a "seed" in the future. Since its inception, from WeChat Official Account to being reprinted and featured by multiple media and communities like CSDN and OSChina, and spontaneously shared by readers, our guests have expanded from cloud resources to technology, entrepreneurship, and new media circles, something beyond my initial expectations. Starting "Bra Asks" was merely a whim of mine, but as it persisted, I saw its influence grow. I believe these valuable records will become opportunities in the eyes of some readers or even enlightenment for emerging entrepreneurs. Readers of the "Bra Asks" column can learn about digitalization in enterprises, state secrets algorithms, DevOps, the full-scale internet, cloud-native, big data visualization, and more in the era of the industrial internet through these pioneers, and even find new growth points for their own industries. As Tencent's founder, Tony Zhang(Zhang Zhidong), said at a recent Tencent internal conference: "We are not just working on the current internet, but using our technology and capabilities to combine with traditional industries, to drive some industries, enabling more people to become wealthy."

When I was very young, I enjoyed reading a magazine called "The Science for Juvenile" by myself at home. Pondering over the circuit diagrams, capacitors, and resistors was more interesting to me than playing outside. I believe that the "Bra Asks" column can also become someone's "The Science for Juvenile", hoping that today's readers will be like that little boy many years ago, who couldn't put down "The Science for Juvenile", not knowing that the words before him were quietly opening the door to another world.