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Discussion on: Inclusive Language in Slack

 
kotzendekrabbe profile image
Feli (she/her)

You argue that the article has to many words which are also used in dev.tos Code Of Conduct (which is a super good one). It's normal to name all the different background when it comes to inlcusion and diversity.
On top of it you argue that it's "US" focused, surprise - most terms in software development are comming from the US. You are not seeing the fact that it has nothing to do where you live if People Of Color see that black and white list are connected to bad and good (as explained in the article).
Beside that you started with just trolling around with "if a bot tells me not to use the word "blacklist", I will start looking for another job" is not critic at all, it's just trolling about something you seem to not understand. That's not inclusive behaviour at all.

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darkwiiplayer profile image
𒎏Wii 🏳️‍⚧️ • Edited

You argue that the article has to many words

Not at all; my point is that all of these things are trivial. Any of the named characteristics are understood by pretty much everyone to be factors in a persons perspective. Listing them all id simply disproportionate to the size of the article and the point it's trying to make.

It's normal to name all the different background when it comes to inlcusion [sic] and diversity.

Many things are common, that doesn't necessarily mean they are meaningful. In a longer article, maybe one of a more formal nature, yes, it would make sense to explicitly name all of these characteristics, but that's not what that article is.

most terms in software development are coming from the US

Many terms in mathematics come from German*; that doesn't mean German cultural norms should be dictated to the whole field of mathematics. But that wasn't even my point. Why would I, living and working outside the USA, not see it as a red flag if language rules were being implemented at my workplace to address political and social sensibilities of the USA?

black and white list are connected to bad and good

This has nothing to do with skin colour. Colours get used in all types of context and there's also many more ways to relate them to the human body. Green means good and nobody would think of connecting this to green eye colour. Red on the other hand means bad yet red-haired people aren't complaining about this.

The fact that black and white specifically are being singled out as bad makes it clear that this isn't an inherent problem with the fact that these colours can be related to people's visual traits, but that this problem only results from a very specific cultural context specific to one geographic area.

Trying to force this on the rest of the world seems arrogant at best, unless there was an equal amount of effort put into the sensibilities of any other culture that might ever interact with a product or service; but that's not even close to being the case, from what I've seen so far.

it's just trolling about something you seem to not understand.

You seem to have a very skewed idea of what "trolling" is.

To clarify: Hyperbole is not trolling. I would indeed be very much opposed to anything like this being implemented at my workplace and it would definitely be a factor if I was ever considering switching workplaces.

On top of that, assuming disagreement to automatically be the result of lack of understanding says a lot on its own. I could just as well be accusing you of not having thought things through simply because your opinion doesn't align with mine. That would lead us nowhere.

* Many of which have also made their way into IT. Ever wondered why null pointers are called that and not zero pointers?

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pixari profile image
Raffaele Pizzari

@darkwiiplayer I see your point and appreciate the effort you put in explaining your point of view.

In an ideal world, no word would be harmful.

In the world we live, we have to consider social implications, cultural background, current context and impact of our behaviour.

Saying "blackboard" doesn't make you racist and it's clear that has nothing to do with human beings or skin color.
However, saying "whiteboard" makes your language more inclusive and it's a clear statement about your social and political views about some crucial topics.

You say: "Green means good and nobody would think of connecting this to green eye colour.".
True, because as far as I know nobody has been discriminated, persecuted or harmed just for having green eyes.

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darkwiiplayer profile image
𒎏Wii 🏳️‍⚧️

True, because as far as I know nobody has been discriminated, persecuted or harmed just for having green eyes.

Fair point, but for one that doesn't apply to red haired people; but it also underlines that this is (as you have also said) highly dependent on cultural background.

To underline some more why I think this is so relevant: I'm from Germany and, while it was definitely a thing here too, racism based on skin colour isn't really as big of a cultural issue here; but instead anything related to the holocaust is probably very comparable to the skin-colour issue in the USA (take the word gas for example) and yet I don't see any attempt to impose this on the rest of the world.

And of course I'm not criticising anybody who does decide to change their language or suggest it to others; my problem is strictly with cases where this "suggestion" turns into grandstanding, like using a bot that actively nags people about their choice of words in a chat.