Let's assume two people are encountered fighting and can be observed as having different racial backgrounds. With a lack of any other information, we cannot jump to the conclusion that race is a factor in this dispute unless we have reason to believe so. Saying that racism exists and structurally measurable and therefore the exact circumstances or motivations for this particular struggle don't matter simply doesn't work. And responding to someone making that point by saying you have no idea how it feels to be of race/gender/background/origin x simply isn't intellectually processable.
If we peel back to what simply occurred, we'd never be discussing what we are discussing now.
We're not in disagreement when we strip it to "the dispute". We don't know his motivations, outside of that he clearly want to let her know he was upset. He did so in a manner that was passive aggressive, public, and manipulative. He has not apologized.
These are obvious facts.
My argument here, and forgive me, but I'm doing my best to articulate the difference, is that Adam's experiences have led him to feel safe to speak to someone like that online and subsequently not to even delete it or apologize for it upon reflection. Those experiences are intrinsically tied to how other people have treated him and a general lack of accountability.
For example, as a woman, if I spoke to a man publicly the way that he did, I would have immediately received a similar toxic pile-on that Sara did. I would have had to delete my post. But the bottom line is that I cannot react to people without considering the impact on myself, and as a result, I will not react to people without considering the impact on them.
As for the expectations element, his response is clearly due to a mismatch in expectations. That's just psychology. Again, his experience in a majority-power white, patriarchal, AND American nationalism, society have led to having different expectations. I attribute this to be because of systemic sexism because that aligns with my experience and what I've seen in this space specifically, including with Adam's interactions with others. I don't like the idea of looking for evidence about Adam specifically to enhance that argument, because Adam himself is not what I'm criticizing, rather his behavior as an example and the broader context that this happens to women in tech, and especially women of color who aren't American far more than anyone else.
saying that you have no insight wasn't in any way related to who you are or what experiences you have (or I have, for that matter) but to the fact that you lacked presenting any facts about the story that would suggest that your assessment is anything else but a hunch of a completely unrelated person
I can understand that this is what you meant to communicate, but your assessment as to why is actually faulty, it comes back to what I've described previously. I'm not talking about Adam as a person, again, though I can understand it's difficult to separate his behavior and the system that enables that behavior from him, considering that we are talking about what he has in common with specific issues within that system.
just want me to remind you of what you said before about challenging your biases
I used misogyny and sexism to try to illustrate the differences between bigotry and systemic inequities that leave groups of people marginalized by the majority homogenous groups. Misogyny is specifically the hatred of women, and chose to use that because the term exists, it allows us to articulate the contrast of sexism from bigotry against women.
And in this future the derogatory nature of expressions like "American white male" will be recognized just like any other form of sexism or racism
I think that there's this implication that the folks with the most power are experiencing inequality or inequity because we use that term, and that the term is offensive or derogatory. I don't know how to explain why it's not, and I think my education on this particular vector of contention is a stack of books and 30+ years of experience in this country would be impossible to lay out in the comment section of DEV.
I hope you can try to believe that when I say that, I'm not intending it in a derogatory way, nor do I hate men, other white folks, or other Americans. I just want us to recognize when we have privilege, and when we're using that privilege as a weapon, even if it's not on purpose. Sometimes self-preservation is the weapon, and it's really hard to decide what you want to do with that.
I wish you all the best, but I have to step away from this. Thank you for the civil discourse.
Passionate generalist conquering the web one project at a time. Whether authoring libraries for node, JS, PHP, or Rust, I am always on the lookout for better solutions to common problems.
Location
USA
Work
Lead Developer & Co-founder at corpscrypt, CTO at REtech
TLDR; I realize that you had many time consuming discussions going on, and I thank you for your time. I fought with myself of whether or not I'll answer as I know it's going to be tempting to keep the chain going, so read at your own risk. Otherwise: all the best.
He did so in a manner that was passive aggressive, public, and manipulative
Yes, as stated, these are obvious facts.
[]... is that Adam's experiences have led him to feel safe to speak to someone like that online and subsequently not to even delete it or apologize for it upon reflection.
See, and here we disagree. I don't know Adam, what happened to him, what kind of person he is, nothing. The only relevant question is hidden in your next sentence:
For example, as a woman, if I spoke to a man publicly the way that he did, I would have immediately received a similar toxic pile-on that Sara did.
This is the core question, isn't it? Is that (still) true, or is that a self-fulfilling prophecy? If it's true sometimes, how structural is it? Those are difficult questions as measurement is hard. As I see it, that is the issue with how we go about truth-finding. Often our confirmation bias lets us say stuff like
I attribute this to be because of systemic sexism because that aligns with my experience and what I've seen in this space specifically
I don't question your experience. I just wonder if it's automatically applicable just because it fits a pattern you created for yourself. And I find that at odd from my perspective. Here is what I don't understand:
You keep saying that you don't want to criticize Adam as a person.
You point to certain behaviors that I will translate into a laymen "like a spoiled child"
And hence, and this is what I don't get, you remove personal accountability from the person in order to blame a greater system while you expect society to blame (or produce a back-lash for) him. So how is this system ever going to be overcome if personal responsibility is not an option? Or do I have to read between the lines, and what you are actually saying is: "I want to call him out but can't because I am a woman"?
I think that there's this implication that the folks with the most power are experiencing inequality or inequity because we use that term, and that the term is offensive or derogatory
I actually have to laugh as if we knew each other IRL you would never put me in the corner you seem to put me in. It's just that you force me to play devil's advocate as the way YOU (not the mentioned we, whoever that is) use these terms is derogatory and a bit condescending. And if I wanted to follow your arguments, I'd say that you can't evaluate whether or not that's true as you don't have the experience of being a white male ;-)
But what I really want to say is: Labels have never helped society. It is the very same mechanism that caused society to function the way it does (you seem to call it patriarchy) and eventually we will have to realize that having no empathy with whoever we label as "part of the powerful" is not a solution. Privilege is complicated and facetted.
There is no world where putting a star on someone's chest to label them as Jews can ever be a good thing.
I realize that you had many time consuming discussions going on, and I thank you for your time.
Thank you.
See, and here we disagree. I don't know Adam, what happened to him, what kind of person he is, nothing. The only relevant question is hidden in your next sentence:
Let me clarify further.
It is a fact that he has not experienced an inherit disadvantage, bias, oppression, or prejudice based on his race, nationality, or gender.
confirmation bias
This is not that. I couldn't possibly, again, deconstruct years of experience and education on this topic here, but I implore you to go outside of this space and explore this topic with other teachers. This is a wonderful piece, albeit old: jstor.org/stable/1495382?seq=1
you remove personal accountability from the person in order to blame a greater system while you expect society to blame (or produce a back-lash for) him
I'm not intentionally doing either of these things. I just don't think it's justifiable of me to discuss who a person is when I don't know them, and the only thing I want to happen is for this to change, and while that does involve accountability from him, I don't expect it or want it from a back-lash, but rather from folks he trusts and respect (some of whom who reached out to me privately for further understanding).
I want everyone to be introspective of our expectations of others, and especially when we are in a position of power. And what folks don't often realize is how that position of power can simply be because of your nationality, gender, or race. What kinds of things am I unduly expecting of this person, and how often do these expectations seem to be similar to this group of people, versus my in-group? How will my behavior impact me, sure, but how will my behavior impact this person, and again, is there a pattern I can connect to my inherit biases toward my in-group?
We have such fleeting time here, squandering the ability to be introspective and leave society better than we found it, is in, my mind, repugnant.
"I want to call him out but can't because I am a woman"?
Unfortunately it's not that simple. I wish it were. I spent decades not recognizing why there were certain expectations of me, why I was talked over, why I was called aggressive while colleagues doing the same things were called assertive, why someone repeating the same idea I had made the idea great when it wasn't when I said it, and my favorite, why people explained to me the most obvious shit completely unsolicited.
It dawned on me, that I was often the only woman in all of these situations.
When you spend your life being assumed that you're not as capable as your peers, and all of your peers are men, and you start talking about it with other women, and they've had the same experience, and suddenly that starts expanding and opening your eyes to how the media and marketing and the wealthy have set you up to be treated this way, it's never just, "Oh, they think I'm stupid because I'm a woman". It's rather, they are being fed the same behavior programming garbage I have been, and they don't even realize what they are doing.
t's just that you force me to play devil's advocate as the way YOU (not the mentioned we, whoever that is) use these terms is derogatory and a bit condescending.
That is certainly not my intention, though I understand why you have the sense that it is. These are difficult topics and I don't believe our language is evolved enough to speak about them without it feeling like the onus is those who benefit from privilege to take responsibility for something they've been brought into involuntarily.
Labels have never helped society.
That's just simply not true. My labels have helped me find people like me, while in most of the spaces I've existed in in my life I've been ostracized and in the minority. It's human to group like things, and when you're the "not like the others" in a very homogenous groups, finding your person or people means everything.
Labeling by people in power on the oppressed has obviously never helped society. Race itself is a child of racism as a pathway to normalize enslaving other human beings. And obviously you allude to Nazi Germany with mentioning labeling Jewish people.
The only solution for this double-edged sword of groups is that all groups have equity, and we recognize when we're treating some folks with inequity that they frequently face by folks like us.
@sroehrl
Just a message to thank you for having taken your time to respond to her that elegantly and politely. I (and many I think) couldn't have done it that way, Bravo !
Some comments have been hidden by the post's author - find out more
For further actions, you may consider blocking this person and/or reporting abuse
We're a place where coders share, stay up-to-date and grow their careers.
If we peel back to what simply occurred, we'd never be discussing what we are discussing now.
We're not in disagreement when we strip it to "the dispute". We don't know his motivations, outside of that he clearly want to let her know he was upset. He did so in a manner that was passive aggressive, public, and manipulative. He has not apologized.
These are obvious facts.
My argument here, and forgive me, but I'm doing my best to articulate the difference, is that Adam's experiences have led him to feel safe to speak to someone like that online and subsequently not to even delete it or apologize for it upon reflection. Those experiences are intrinsically tied to how other people have treated him and a general lack of accountability.
For example, as a woman, if I spoke to a man publicly the way that he did, I would have immediately received a similar toxic pile-on that Sara did. I would have had to delete my post. But the bottom line is that I cannot react to people without considering the impact on myself, and as a result, I will not react to people without considering the impact on them.
As for the expectations element, his response is clearly due to a mismatch in expectations. That's just psychology. Again, his experience in a majority-power white, patriarchal, AND American nationalism, society have led to having different expectations. I attribute this to be because of systemic sexism because that aligns with my experience and what I've seen in this space specifically, including with Adam's interactions with others. I don't like the idea of looking for evidence about Adam specifically to enhance that argument, because Adam himself is not what I'm criticizing, rather his behavior as an example and the broader context that this happens to women in tech, and especially women of color who aren't American far more than anyone else.
I can understand that this is what you meant to communicate, but your assessment as to why is actually faulty, it comes back to what I've described previously. I'm not talking about Adam as a person, again, though I can understand it's difficult to separate his behavior and the system that enables that behavior from him, considering that we are talking about what he has in common with specific issues within that system.
I used misogyny and sexism to try to illustrate the differences between bigotry and systemic inequities that leave groups of people marginalized by the majority homogenous groups. Misogyny is specifically the hatred of women, and chose to use that because the term exists, it allows us to articulate the contrast of sexism from bigotry against women.
I think that there's this implication that the folks with the most power are experiencing inequality or inequity because we use that term, and that the term is offensive or derogatory. I don't know how to explain why it's not, and I think my education on this particular vector of contention is a stack of books and 30+ years of experience in this country would be impossible to lay out in the comment section of DEV.
I hope you can try to believe that when I say that, I'm not intending it in a derogatory way, nor do I hate men, other white folks, or other Americans. I just want us to recognize when we have privilege, and when we're using that privilege as a weapon, even if it's not on purpose. Sometimes self-preservation is the weapon, and it's really hard to decide what you want to do with that.
I wish you all the best, but I have to step away from this. Thank you for the civil discourse.
TLDR; I realize that you had many time consuming discussions going on, and I thank you for your time. I fought with myself of whether or not I'll answer as I know it's going to be tempting to keep the chain going, so read at your own risk. Otherwise: all the best.
Yes, as stated, these are obvious facts.
See, and here we disagree. I don't know Adam, what happened to him, what kind of person he is, nothing. The only relevant question is hidden in your next sentence:
This is the core question, isn't it? Is that (still) true, or is that a self-fulfilling prophecy? If it's true sometimes, how structural is it? Those are difficult questions as measurement is hard. As I see it, that is the issue with how we go about truth-finding. Often our confirmation bias lets us say stuff like
I don't question your experience. I just wonder if it's automatically applicable just because it fits a pattern you created for yourself. And I find that at odd from my perspective. Here is what I don't understand:
And hence, and this is what I don't get, you remove personal accountability from the person in order to blame a greater system while you expect society to blame (or produce a back-lash for) him. So how is this system ever going to be overcome if personal responsibility is not an option? Or do I have to read between the lines, and what you are actually saying is: "I want to call him out but can't because I am a woman"?
I actually have to laugh as if we knew each other IRL you would never put me in the corner you seem to put me in. It's just that you force me to play devil's advocate as the way YOU (not the mentioned we, whoever that is) use these terms is derogatory and a bit condescending. And if I wanted to follow your arguments, I'd say that you can't evaluate whether or not that's true as you don't have the experience of being a white male ;-)
But what I really want to say is: Labels have never helped society. It is the very same mechanism that caused society to function the way it does (you seem to call it patriarchy) and eventually we will have to realize that having no empathy with whoever we label as "part of the powerful" is not a solution. Privilege is complicated and facetted.
There is no world where putting a star on someone's chest to label them as Jews can ever be a good thing.
Thank you.
Let me clarify further.
It is a fact that he has not experienced an inherit disadvantage, bias, oppression, or prejudice based on his race, nationality, or gender.
This is not that. I couldn't possibly, again, deconstruct years of experience and education on this topic here, but I implore you to go outside of this space and explore this topic with other teachers. This is a wonderful piece, albeit old: jstor.org/stable/1495382?seq=1
I'm not intentionally doing either of these things. I just don't think it's justifiable of me to discuss who a person is when I don't know them, and the only thing I want to happen is for this to change, and while that does involve accountability from him, I don't expect it or want it from a back-lash, but rather from folks he trusts and respect (some of whom who reached out to me privately for further understanding).
I want everyone to be introspective of our expectations of others, and especially when we are in a position of power. And what folks don't often realize is how that position of power can simply be because of your nationality, gender, or race. What kinds of things am I unduly expecting of this person, and how often do these expectations seem to be similar to this group of people, versus my in-group? How will my behavior impact me, sure, but how will my behavior impact this person, and again, is there a pattern I can connect to my inherit biases toward my in-group?
We have such fleeting time here, squandering the ability to be introspective and leave society better than we found it, is in, my mind, repugnant.
Unfortunately it's not that simple. I wish it were. I spent decades not recognizing why there were certain expectations of me, why I was talked over, why I was called aggressive while colleagues doing the same things were called assertive, why someone repeating the same idea I had made the idea great when it wasn't when I said it, and my favorite, why people explained to me the most obvious shit completely unsolicited.
It dawned on me, that I was often the only woman in all of these situations.
When you spend your life being assumed that you're not as capable as your peers, and all of your peers are men, and you start talking about it with other women, and they've had the same experience, and suddenly that starts expanding and opening your eyes to how the media and marketing and the wealthy have set you up to be treated this way, it's never just, "Oh, they think I'm stupid because I'm a woman". It's rather, they are being fed the same behavior programming garbage I have been, and they don't even realize what they are doing.
That is certainly not my intention, though I understand why you have the sense that it is. These are difficult topics and I don't believe our language is evolved enough to speak about them without it feeling like the onus is those who benefit from privilege to take responsibility for something they've been brought into involuntarily.
That's just simply not true. My labels have helped me find people like me, while in most of the spaces I've existed in in my life I've been ostracized and in the minority. It's human to group like things, and when you're the "not like the others" in a very homogenous groups, finding your person or people means everything.
Labeling by people in power on the oppressed has obviously never helped society. Race itself is a child of racism as a pathway to normalize enslaving other human beings. And obviously you allude to Nazi Germany with mentioning labeling Jewish people.
The only solution for this double-edged sword of groups is that all groups have equity, and we recognize when we're treating some folks with inequity that they frequently face by folks like us.
@sroehrl Just a message to thank you for having taken your time to respond to her that elegantly and politely. I (and many I think) couldn't have done it that way, Bravo !