Patently wrong. As a 12 year homeschooling parent very involved in the homeschool community, I can attest that most, if not all, homeschoolers are better socialized than their schooled counterparts.
Let’s let that tired myth die, please.
We are barely home. Classes, field trips, museums, park days, get togethers, competitions, volunteering, jobs...homeschoolers experience the world and learn from real life far more than schooled kids and are not just around children their own age.
When else in life are we cooped up all day, week, and year long with only people born within a year of our birthday? And then, told not to socialize or talk or we get in trouble?
Homeschoolers collaborate, travel, work in groups, have to figure out social niceties, and typically avoid bullies and ostracizing and cliques because there is more supervision and more parents around (it takes a village).
They also go to college, trade schools, and start businesses. There’s no epidemic of former homeschoolers on welfare last time I checked. My eldest just graduated in June and got an A in his first community college course over the summer.
And now? Now many more are getting to have this wonderful experience due to Covid. An education tailored to the child and their interests? More time in a day to get school done and move on to hobbies, projects, and interests? This is the way.
Literally everything I listed includes more (and more diverse) socialization than public schools can offer.
If parents are very involved in the process
By definition, they are - unlike those pawning off their kids on the state's glorified free daycare.
Even among the stereotypical homeschoolers who withdraw their kids from schools for religious reasons (and I can assure you there are plenty of secular homeschoolers, I spent the last 5 years building an LMS for them), the parents are heavily involved and the children are socialized.
That is the #1 criticism of homeschooling by a long shot (seriously, "But what about socialization?" is a running joke and a meme in homeschooling communities) and it's patently false.
Its not a joke and its not patently false. What part dont you get I am trying to make? I am just saying that by definition, if you "home school" there will be less socialization. Can you make it up? Yes, but it requires additional effort.
Am I against homeschooling? Of course not. Did I say children get better education or healthier social relationships at public schools? No. I just am saying that by definition those children that spend a big part of their day around others will have more interactions with others and socialize more than those that are home-schooled and stay at home. Dont you agree? Being in a class with 20 plus students forces you to interact with those around you if you like it or not. At home, you dont have that kind of dynamic.
By definition, they are - unlike those pawning off their kids on the state's glorified free daycare.
No they are not. To be "very" involved requires a lot of time, and that means having some good financial stability, having both parents involved and many other factors that many households do not have.
In the US homeschooling has a stronger community support, but what about other countries? In many countries you are an isolated homeschooler if you choose to take that path.
I will also address the only 2 positive points you brought that are relevant to the topic regarding homeschoolers.
Homeschoolers often meet up in local groups, when they're not free to socialize in the real world instead of a contrived box.
This is the whole point I am making. If you can organize such local groups and often meet up then go for it. What I am saying is that often this is not the case and these local groups are not formed. I personally know a few homeschoolers that never had such local groups and if they did it was very seldom they would meet up.
I seriously question your socialization if you think it has to be compulsory and uniform.
You're ignoring everything I've said about the massive time and cost savings, and the additional opportunities for socialization afforded by them; and you still haven't answered why you're giving public school parents a pass on their dereliction of parental obligations, rather than holding them to the same standard you do homeschooling parents.
I seriously question your socialization if you think it has to be compulsory and uniform.
I never said that.
I think you are misjudging and misunderstanding what I am saying and are becoming too defensive.
I like homeschooling and I see enormous benefits in it. I agree with most of the other points you mentioned about the benefits of homeschooling. I regard homeschooled children often more smart and intelligent than other non homeschooled ones. The only point I disagreed with you is the socializing one, its the challenging one to get right with homeschooling and is the biggest factor parents should care about if they decide to pull their children out of public schools. Parents have to make sure their children can meet up with other homeschoolers and organize club activities for their children, ideally on a daily basis. If this is possible, its a great option to consider pulling the out of public school.
You misjudge me if you think I am against homeschooling. My issue was simply that you made it look as if the socializing part is not an issue and no need to worry about that. In fact its the most concerning issue and should be cared most about if you decide to homeschool your children.
Of course you should care about it. But that's the thing: If you're withdrawing your child to homeschool (or making the conscious decision to do so from the start), then chances are pretty good that you do. I pointed out above how this conversation turned from "but what about socialization?" to "well sure, if the parent really cares..." (and apparently continues to do so... But again, somehow it's ok for public school parents not to care?).
And I'm saying that socialization comes in far more forms than just standing in lines with the exact same kids in the exact same groups day in, day out. It comes in the form of some of the most valuable lessons in life: Conversations with elders. And with other children of different ages. And in seeing adults interact with one another and being a part of said interactions, rather than just being "talked at" (as opposed to "spoken to") by the same authority figures every day.
Sure there are the occasional, stereotypical, isolated weirdos. There are plenty of those in public schools too, relegated to such by the cruel social structures of the popularity mob (usually the cool kids who don't amount to anything as adults).
And no, it shouldn't be "cared most about." A complete, comprehensive education (including heavy study in history, so often an afterthought in the current public obsession with STEM scores), in which socialization is just one of many components (albeit a critical one), should be top priority.
Did you even read what I wrote? I will emphasize it again. If parents are very involved, meet up with other local homeschoolers, get their children into clubs and make sure they get a good amount of socializing outside of the family circe, yes that's ideal. But as I said in many cases this is not true. Many homeschoolers grow up in a small circle of family/friends, and when they go out to universities/outside work find it hard to socialize and integrate.
Maybe your curriculum and setup has worked well, but I am talking about many other cases where its not possible meet up with other homeschoolers as easy or there are not as many opportunities to join clubs etc.
You seem to think everyone can afford to do all the things you list. Sadly many of us have to work really hard to earn a living. There are stories of home schooled children who never stepped foot outside of their houses. Obviously that is the wrong way to do it. But one should be aware and concerned of all that before making a decision that could potentially destroy his or her child's life. No?
30 years ago people homeschooled with park day and the library. It doesn’t have to be expensive. There are second and third generation homeschooling families now as a result and as I said, they’re not on welfare, they’re successful. The founding fathers also didn’t have a lot of resources beyond books and their families and communities, and I’d say they did ok. The stigma that homeschooling is sheltering or ruining kids is not backed up by any evidence! What evidence do you have that it is beyond your tired stereotypes?
Of course parents should go into it wide eyes open and thoughtfully, as they should with any decision regarding their kids. But to pose they should because it could “destroy“ their lives? Ha. Check out the 2014 study by the government about how 10% of schooled kids are abused by school officials. Look at the graduation rate and the drop out rate for public schools. Shootings, bullying. Which option is ruining kids?
At the elementary school my ex and I withdrew her daughter from to homeschool (whose administration tried to lie to us and say we couldn't withdraw her until what amounted to the required enrollment date for their next tuition payment from the state for having her in the head count, until I got HSLDA's lawyers involved) there was a case of a STAAR test tutor molesting a little girl on campus right after we withdrew ours and that was more than 3 years after the linked article on the subject.
You seem to think everyone can afford to do all the things you list. Sadly many of us have to work really hard to earn a living. There are stories of home schooled children who never stepped foot outside of their houses. Obviously that is the wrong way to do it. But one should be aware and concerned of all that before making a decision that could potentially destroy his or her child's life. No?
Bad parenting is bad parenting. Full stop.
There are stories of kids dying in mass shootings. But you're not blaming public schools for that, are you? It's either liberals blaming guns, or conservatives blaming mental health, but nobody stops to think that the cost of punting to the state their responsibility to see to their kids' education is leaving them as vulnerable as fish in a barrel. And whether your answer is "more security" or "arm the teachers," a crazy person who sees a gun free zone will likely still take many casualties before stopped.
As for the cost of education, even the cheapest states spend five figures per child per year, whereas you can successfully homeschool for less than $1k/yr (even with more than one child in some cases). Even the time investment is little more than what a public school student spends doing homework every day (but I don't hear you bemoaning their parents' lack of involvement).
And there are countless stories of public school students whose parents (if they even have parents) have them living in the absolute worst conditions. My current girlfriend is a public school teacher who, before transferring to special ed, was tasked with getting the most broken of children in the worst of homes to stay in school long enough to graduate. Many of them didn't, largely because their home lives were so shamefully bad.
On another hand I can attest US education isn't the best in the world. I studied elementary thru junior high in Mexico and high school in Texas was a joke. I didn't learn much in public school in fact my uncle would give me college math assignments at home.
The other gripe about public schools is that they are highly biased my kids would come home talking about teachers promoting presidential candidates, that's unacceptable for me. Just imagine what else is biased.
I'd also like to point out that the argument against homeschooling went from "wHaT aBoUt sOciALiZaTiOn?" to "well sure socialization is possible if the parent cares, but what if they don't?" and "you assume parents have that luxury" when the author clearly cares about what is best for his children, has done the research, and is able to do this.
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Patently wrong. As a 12 year homeschooling parent very involved in the homeschool community, I can attest that most, if not all, homeschoolers are better socialized than their schooled counterparts.
Let’s let that tired myth die, please.
We are barely home. Classes, field trips, museums, park days, get togethers, competitions, volunteering, jobs...homeschoolers experience the world and learn from real life far more than schooled kids and are not just around children their own age.
When else in life are we cooped up all day, week, and year long with only people born within a year of our birthday? And then, told not to socialize or talk or we get in trouble?
Homeschoolers collaborate, travel, work in groups, have to figure out social niceties, and typically avoid bullies and ostracizing and cliques because there is more supervision and more parents around (it takes a village).
They also go to college, trade schools, and start businesses. There’s no epidemic of former homeschoolers on welfare last time I checked. My eldest just graduated in June and got an A in his first community college course over the summer.
And now? Now many more are getting to have this wonderful experience due to Covid. An education tailored to the child and their interests? More time in a day to get school done and move on to hobbies, projects, and interests? This is the way.
Literally everything I listed includes more (and more diverse) socialization than public schools can offer.
By definition, they are - unlike those pawning off their kids on the state's glorified free daycare.
Even among the stereotypical homeschoolers who withdraw their kids from schools for religious reasons (and I can assure you there are plenty of secular homeschoolers, I spent the last 5 years building an LMS for them), the parents are heavily involved and the children are socialized.
My main argument was to your point:
Its not a joke and its not patently false. What part dont you get I am trying to make? I am just saying that by definition, if you "home school" there will be less socialization. Can you make it up? Yes, but it requires additional effort.
Am I against homeschooling? Of course not. Did I say children get better education or healthier social relationships at public schools? No. I just am saying that by definition those children that spend a big part of their day around others will have more interactions with others and socialize more than those that are home-schooled and stay at home. Dont you agree? Being in a class with 20 plus students forces you to interact with those around you if you like it or not. At home, you dont have that kind of dynamic.
No they are not. To be "very" involved requires a lot of time, and that means having some good financial stability, having both parents involved and many other factors that many households do not have.
In the US homeschooling has a stronger community support, but what about other countries? In many countries you are an isolated homeschooler if you choose to take that path.
I will also address the only 2 positive points you brought that are relevant to the topic regarding homeschoolers.
This is the whole point I am making. If you can organize such local groups and often meet up then go for it. What I am saying is that often this is not the case and these local groups are not formed. I personally know a few homeschoolers that never had such local groups and if they did it was very seldom they would meet up.
How exactly? Other than close family.
I seriously question your socialization if you think it has to be compulsory and uniform.
You're ignoring everything I've said about the massive time and cost savings, and the additional opportunities for socialization afforded by them; and you still haven't answered why you're giving public school parents a pass on their dereliction of parental obligations, rather than holding them to the same standard you do homeschooling parents.
I never said that.
I think you are misjudging and misunderstanding what I am saying and are becoming too defensive.
I like homeschooling and I see enormous benefits in it. I agree with most of the other points you mentioned about the benefits of homeschooling. I regard homeschooled children often more smart and intelligent than other non homeschooled ones. The only point I disagreed with you is the socializing one, its the challenging one to get right with homeschooling and is the biggest factor parents should care about if they decide to pull their children out of public schools. Parents have to make sure their children can meet up with other homeschoolers and organize club activities for their children, ideally on a daily basis. If this is possible, its a great option to consider pulling the out of public school.
You misjudge me if you think I am against homeschooling. My issue was simply that you made it look as if the socializing part is not an issue and no need to worry about that. In fact its the most concerning issue and should be cared most about if you decide to homeschool your children.
Of course you should care about it. But that's the thing: If you're withdrawing your child to homeschool (or making the conscious decision to do so from the start), then chances are pretty good that you do. I pointed out above how this conversation turned from "but what about socialization?" to "well sure, if the parent really cares..." (and apparently continues to do so... But again, somehow it's ok for public school parents not to care?).
And I'm saying that socialization comes in far more forms than just standing in lines with the exact same kids in the exact same groups day in, day out. It comes in the form of some of the most valuable lessons in life: Conversations with elders. And with other children of different ages. And in seeing adults interact with one another and being a part of said interactions, rather than just being "talked at" (as opposed to "spoken to") by the same authority figures every day.
Sure there are the occasional, stereotypical, isolated weirdos. There are plenty of those in public schools too, relegated to such by the cruel social structures of the popularity mob (usually the cool kids who don't amount to anything as adults).
And no, it shouldn't be "cared most about." A complete, comprehensive education (including heavy study in history, so often an afterthought in the current public obsession with STEM scores), in which socialization is just one of many components (albeit a critical one), should be top priority.
Did you even read what I wrote? I will emphasize it again. If parents are very involved, meet up with other local homeschoolers, get their children into clubs and make sure they get a good amount of socializing outside of the family circe, yes that's ideal. But as I said in many cases this is not true. Many homeschoolers grow up in a small circle of family/friends, and when they go out to universities/outside work find it hard to socialize and integrate.
Maybe your curriculum and setup has worked well, but I am talking about many other cases where its not possible meet up with other homeschoolers as easy or there are not as many opportunities to join clubs etc.
You seem to think everyone can afford to do all the things you list. Sadly many of us have to work really hard to earn a living. There are stories of home schooled children who never stepped foot outside of their houses. Obviously that is the wrong way to do it. But one should be aware and concerned of all that before making a decision that could potentially destroy his or her child's life. No?
“In many cases that’s not true”
Backed up by what evidence of yours?
30 years ago people homeschooled with park day and the library. It doesn’t have to be expensive. There are second and third generation homeschooling families now as a result and as I said, they’re not on welfare, they’re successful. The founding fathers also didn’t have a lot of resources beyond books and their families and communities, and I’d say they did ok. The stigma that homeschooling is sheltering or ruining kids is not backed up by any evidence! What evidence do you have that it is beyond your tired stereotypes?
Of course parents should go into it wide eyes open and thoughtfully, as they should with any decision regarding their kids. But to pose they should because it could “destroy“ their lives? Ha. Check out the 2014 study by the government about how 10% of schooled kids are abused by school officials. Look at the graduation rate and the drop out rate for public schools. Shootings, bullying. Which option is ruining kids?
edsource.org/2014/schools-failing-...
At the elementary school my ex and I withdrew her daughter from to homeschool (whose administration tried to lie to us and say we couldn't withdraw her until what amounted to the required enrollment date for their next tuition payment from the state for having her in the head count, until I got HSLDA's lawyers involved) there was a case of a STAAR test tutor molesting a little girl on campus right after we withdrew ours and that was more than 3 years after the linked article on the subject.
Bad parenting is bad parenting. Full stop.
There are stories of kids dying in mass shootings. But you're not blaming public schools for that, are you? It's either liberals blaming guns, or conservatives blaming mental health, but nobody stops to think that the cost of punting to the state their responsibility to see to their kids' education is leaving them as vulnerable as fish in a barrel. And whether your answer is "more security" or "arm the teachers," a crazy person who sees a gun free zone will likely still take many casualties before stopped.
As for the cost of education, even the cheapest states spend five figures per child per year, whereas you can successfully homeschool for less than $1k/yr (even with more than one child in some cases). Even the time investment is little more than what a public school student spends doing homework every day (but I don't hear you bemoaning their parents' lack of involvement).
And there are countless stories of public school students whose parents (if they even have parents) have them living in the absolute worst conditions. My current girlfriend is a public school teacher who, before transferring to special ed, was tasked with getting the most broken of children in the worst of homes to stay in school long enough to graduate. Many of them didn't, largely because their home lives were so shamefully bad.
So what were you saying about destroying lives?
On another hand I can attest US education isn't the best in the world. I studied elementary thru junior high in Mexico and high school in Texas was a joke. I didn't learn much in public school in fact my uncle would give me college math assignments at home.
The other gripe about public schools is that they are highly biased my kids would come home talking about teachers promoting presidential candidates, that's unacceptable for me. Just imagine what else is biased.
I'd also like to point out that the argument against homeschooling went from "wHaT aBoUt sOciALiZaTiOn?" to "well sure socialization is possible if the parent cares, but what if they don't?" and "you assume parents have that luxury" when the author clearly cares about what is best for his children, has done the research, and is able to do this.