Software devs who ignore the engineering principles of yesterday in favor of hogging resources because it's convenient for you are what's wrong with the world today. People like you are dragging down the software industry by adding garbage to your apps faster than hardware can expand. This needs to stop. God knows what amazing things we would have now if everyone programmed like it was the 80s instead of starting 5 processes taking 200MB of RAM and using 15% CPU for a hello world app.
I remember when we got our first IBM PC with 128K (yes, people really did useful stuff on 48K TRS-80s, Apple ][ various CP/M boxes).
My first reaction:
"128K! This is just going to lead to sloppy programming."
I was spot-f'ing-on then and its been repeated several times since.
No way I'd ever want to go back.
I'm not sure why anyone developing/using an electron app is shocked by its resource requirements. Modern browsers are basically a separate OS and runtime environment running in some other host environment (Win, Linux, MacOS).
How does that NOT consume vast amounts of resources?
Hi Jon, I invite you to check Nintendo64 games and architecture.
You'd say that's not related to the topic, but I think it does.
The most of N64 games are stored in 4MB, some of them finally came in 64MB.. And there was lots of textures, logic, among other things; CPU was 96Mhz and RAM just 4.5MB Rambus. Play those games were more complex than a desktop application to edit text, however, to execute Atom (for example) means lose at least 1GB of RAM..
Well programming in the current time has been forgotten, because everything is about time-to-market, but after that, companies forget to improve the logic of their apps, they continue adding more and more features without think in resources that these are consuming..
Do you want to build once and execute everywhere? Use Java.. As simple as that, it exists since 25 years ago and is one of the most mature technologies out there..
I don't hate Electron, however, it has to be improved urgently.. Frameworks are a double-edged sword..
I'm not surprised by it. I am, occasionally, surprised to find an app I'm interested in using is built on Electron. As soon as I find it is, I delete it. Because battery life matters.
If everyone programmed like it was the 80s we'd have 1/1000th of the available software we have today because everyone would be programming in C and assembly, and having to completely rewrite their entire codebase to release it on a different platform. It's a double-edged sword. Electron is convenient, enables multi-platform releases from a single codebase, and runs flawlessly on every computer I own or use. Is their room for improvement? Hell yes there is. But trying to say that Electron apps are somehow "dragging down the software industry" (a claim I'd LOVE to see some data on, especially data that shows the software industry being dragged down by ANYTHING,) is just ridiculous.
IMHO, it's people who use phrases like "... are what's wrong with the world today" are, in large part, what's wrong with the world today. Get some perspective.
You just assume that the 80s had only primitive languages like assembly. Smalltalk came out in 1980, decades before "modern" languages like Java and JavaScript, and imo it's still a far better language than both of them.
Ah yes, and we all know of such smalltalk-based software masterworks like... uh... hmmm.
Actually, I've used smalltalk - had a class that used it at Georgia Tech - and while it's certainly an interesting language, and extremely useful for learning about OOP, you'll notice it's not actually very popular outside of research projects and other academia.
Also, I'm wondering what the point of your comment was. Yes, I know there were lots of programming languages that existed in the 80s. However, I was replying to a comment about how great software was in the 80s (HA!) because it was hand-crafted by skilled monks trained by the Dalia Lama using nothing but the finest assembly.
In short: for example, the whole WIMP (Windows, Icons, Menu, Pointer) interface happened only because it was prototyped in XeroxParc using Smalltalk. And it wasn't resource hog crapware. It was light and snappy.
I notice on that link that the WIMP interface (which, admittedly, is a hell of a good example) is pretty much the only well-known project, and that was like 40 years ago... which kinda reinforces my point that People Don't Use Smalltalk unless they're in school.
Yeah, it is. My comment was not meant to bash C at all - C was my first programming language, and I think that some truly excellent software has been, and continues to be, written in C. My point was that "software isn't as good as it was in my day, when everything was in C or assembly!" is a rather rose-saturated view of the past, and ignores the mountains of good software that's been written with more modern languages.
In fact, I pretty much agree with your main point. VS Code, for example, is an electron app that starts up instantaneously, doesn't slow down when dozens of extensions are added to it, has a ton of functionality, and maintains a memory footprint of about 26MB when I have a 20k file project open. Atom is a bloated monstrosity compared to it, yet they're based on the same app wrapper package... so obviously the problem isn't actually electron (or, at least, not all electron).
Software devs who ignore the engineering principles of yesterday in favor of hogging resources because it's convenient for you are what's wrong with the world today. People like you are dragging down the software industry by adding garbage to your apps faster than hardware can expand. This needs to stop. God knows what amazing things we would have now if everyone programmed like it was the 80s instead of starting 5 processes taking 200MB of RAM and using 15% CPU for a hello world app.
Also congrats: reddit.com/r/programmingcirclejerk...
I remember when we got our first IBM PC with 128K (yes, people really did useful stuff on 48K TRS-80s, Apple ][ various CP/M boxes).
My first reaction:
"128K! This is just going to lead to sloppy programming."
I was spot-f'ing-on then and its been repeated several times since.
No way I'd ever want to go back.
I'm not sure why anyone developing/using an electron app is shocked by its resource requirements. Modern browsers are basically a separate OS and runtime environment running in some other host environment (Win, Linux, MacOS).
How does that NOT consume vast amounts of resources?
Hi Jon, I invite you to check Nintendo64 games and architecture.
You'd say that's not related to the topic, but I think it does.
The most of N64 games are stored in 4MB, some of them finally came in 64MB.. And there was lots of textures, logic, among other things; CPU was 96Mhz and RAM just 4.5MB Rambus. Play those games were more complex than a desktop application to edit text, however, to execute Atom (for example) means lose at least 1GB of RAM..
Well programming in the current time has been forgotten, because everything is about time-to-market, but after that, companies forget to improve the logic of their apps, they continue adding more and more features without think in resources that these are consuming..
Do you want to build once and execute everywhere? Use Java.. As simple as that, it exists since 25 years ago and is one of the most mature technologies out there..
I don't hate Electron, however, it has to be improved urgently.. Frameworks are a double-edged sword..
I'm not surprised by it. I am, occasionally, surprised to find an app I'm interested in using is built on Electron. As soon as I find it is, I delete it. Because battery life matters.
If everyone programmed like it was the 80s we'd have 1/1000th of the available software we have today because everyone would be programming in C and assembly, and having to completely rewrite their entire codebase to release it on a different platform. It's a double-edged sword. Electron is convenient, enables multi-platform releases from a single codebase, and runs flawlessly on every computer I own or use. Is their room for improvement? Hell yes there is. But trying to say that Electron apps are somehow "dragging down the software industry" (a claim I'd LOVE to see some data on, especially data that shows the software industry being dragged down by ANYTHING,) is just ridiculous.
IMHO, it's people who use phrases like "... are what's wrong with the world today" are, in large part, what's wrong with the world today. Get some perspective.
You just assume that the 80s had only primitive languages like assembly. Smalltalk came out in 1980, decades before "modern" languages like Java and JavaScript, and imo it's still a far better language than both of them.
Ah yes, and we all know of such smalltalk-based software masterworks like... uh... hmmm.
Actually, I've used smalltalk - had a class that used it at Georgia Tech - and while it's certainly an interesting language, and extremely useful for learning about OOP, you'll notice it's not actually very popular outside of research projects and other academia.
Also, I'm wondering what the point of your comment was. Yes, I know there were lots of programming languages that existed in the 80s. However, I was replying to a comment about how great software was in the 80s (HA!) because it was hand-crafted by skilled monks trained by the Dalia Lama using nothing but the finest assembly.
You're too young to remember them. Look here: wiki.c2.com/?WhatsBeenDoneInSmalltalk
In short: for example, the whole WIMP (Windows, Icons, Menu, Pointer) interface happened only because it was prototyped in XeroxParc using Smalltalk. And it wasn't resource hog crapware. It was light and snappy.
I notice on that link that the WIMP interface (which, admittedly, is a hell of a good example) is pretty much the only well-known project, and that was like 40 years ago... which kinda reinforces my point that People Don't Use Smalltalk unless they're in school.
Hm. Isn't the Linux kernel written in C?
Don't blame the language, blame the coders. Today's programmers are making all of the same mistakes, and new ones, in Node and Ruby and Python.
Yeah, it is. My comment was not meant to bash C at all - C was my first programming language, and I think that some truly excellent software has been, and continues to be, written in C. My point was that "software isn't as good as it was in my day, when everything was in C or assembly!" is a rather rose-saturated view of the past, and ignores the mountains of good software that's been written with more modern languages.
In fact, I pretty much agree with your main point. VS Code, for example, is an electron app that starts up instantaneously, doesn't slow down when dozens of extensions are added to it, has a ton of functionality, and maintains a memory footprint of about 26MB when I have a 20k file project open. Atom is a bloated monstrosity compared to it, yet they're based on the same app wrapper package... so obviously the problem isn't actually electron (or, at least, not all electron).
Alexa, how to write an Operative System in jQuery