re: Todo-MVP: Or 'Why You Shouldn't Use A Web Framework' - The Revenge VIEW POST

re: I guess not your one arbitrary ad hoc example team. I work in a company with thousands of engineers and I've worked on teams as small as two and ev...

The difference between you and me is not that either of us can or can't use frameworks to build applications, it's that one of us is on an esoteric quest an the other has better things to do than fiddle with library curation

Actually I'd just rather not have to learn how to use a new framework every couple of years because that's what happens to all of them. I have better things to do than learn some other person's idea of how a web app should be built when in essence all i really need is

main function, start server, with router, routes mapped to controllers... job done.

The fact you are strawman-ing the argument in terms of being "esoteric" is pretty sad.

Re job ads, find any Go jobs with a framework and come back to me. All the job ads I look at in my area dont specify frameworks at all, shrug. They usually just look for good engineers with some familiarity with particular programming languages.

So you're building static sites? Because you haven't listed Auth, Storage, Caching, Queues, Jobs, Search, Web Sockets, API, templating, DI, or any other number of things that are used quite frequently if not 100% of the time on the apps I'm building every day. Your "Job Done" looks a helluva lot different than my "Job Done". And if that's your use case fine, but don't try to pretend that that's common. That's all choices that I can either take the time to make myself and then explain to dozens or hundreds of other people, or I can just say, "Here's the standard way the framework has chosen to solve for it, learn it once and use it for the next 100 apps you spin up. If you run into an edge case we'll flip out the stock solve for something that works for that." You make some super weird arguments my friend...

Chris, Rails has been around for 12 years. I think the first version I used was 3 something, we're almost at 6. It's essentially the same thing.

I think JS frameworks deserve a bit of your distaste but most server side frameworks don't change that fast.

There would be riots if they did.

So you're building static sites? Because you haven't listed Auth, Storage, Caching, Queues, Jobs, Search, Web Sockets, API, templating, DI

All covered by libraries, if and when i need them.

Apart from DI, you dont need libraries for DI (although things like frameworks will trick you into thinking you do)

Chris, Rails has been around for 12 years.

This is a fair point.

I would still contend the overall tone of it being wasteful/impossible to build non-trivial applications without frameworks is bordering on absurd.

Look at most Go projects, you wont find any frameworks there. How are people making "real" things with Go?

I think you conflated two separate answers by two different people 😬

I think both camps have valid points but I've only seen one or two people talking about the value of frameworks in equalizing the developer experience between different levels of skills or in companies with high turnover.

I don't think you always need a framework but I don't also think you never do.

Yes I was trying to reply to both with the quotes but maybe the UX of this site didnt expect such a nested flamewar ;)

I don't think you always need a framework but I don't also think you never do.

I dont disagree at all. I feel like the main point of this post is that it shouldn't be the default position that you do.

I can hire a mid level developer and outsource the cost of teaching them the parts of my code that are just infrastructure and focus on the actual application exactly because I know that they know where the code is put.

How can I outsource that? By using a framework and make sure they actually know it when interviewing.

Could a good developer be brought up to speed in a frameworkless environment? Sure.

Will it always happen? Nope. I've seen the horror of multi year apps written "just with PHP" (I was hired to rewrite it in Django exactly because nobody knew how it worked and they just kept it there as legacy).

It really depends on the people in this framework less space. You guys are capable developers and made a sensible choice.

As a freelancer I came across small agencies with developers with variable levels of skills with unmaintanable apps using a framework. They would have had unmaintanable apps nonetheless without such framework. The difference is that the new set of eyes (me in that case) was able to just focus on the spaghetti app code, not also the spaghetti infrastructure code.

My personal experience of growing big with a framework is that you ultimately will end up just using it as a layer between your logic and HTML, the more your skills improve.

Something like

def action
  # call my business logic, ok bye
  # return some HTML

I don't see the big difference in the case of a well experienced developer like you are.

My favorite framework is Flask because it just does the boring parts of web apps and can be plugged with functionality pretty easily. Also has a neat concept called blueprints that allows you to put controllers wherever you want

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