Programming languages enthusiast. Author of Learn Type Driven Development: https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/learn-type-driven-development
It's easy to say in hindsight that this is a 'fundamentally incorrect design', now that we know all this. My question is, where were all these brilliant insights a month, a year, five years ago, while the library was in production use throughout the Java ecosystem? Where were the critics who are crawling out of the woodwork now? Sorry, but imho, y'all don't get to show up eight years after the fact and criticize and dictate and try to pull mind games like this appeal to the sense of pride thing that you're trying to do. ('Where's your pride as a developer? Don't you want to provide this free patch for a library that you've been maintaining for years, to us who are profiting off it, on our urgent timeline, working through the weekend? Don't you feel any shame?')
They don't have to fix it to prove they are competent developers, they have to fix because they are competent developers.
And if they didn't want to, they're not competent developers? Slightly different words, same gatekeeper-y meaning.
Look, my argument is not that bugs/design flaws should not be fixed. It's that they should not be fixed on the high-pressure timelines of corporations which are benefiting off their unpaid labour. I say chew on it for one, two, three months. Don't let the urgency of others become your own. Don't let them dictate that you spend evenings and weekends away from your family. They'll be criticized no matter what they do–your comments prove that. So might as well preserve their mental health while they go through that. Or even let others contribute and try to fix this supposedly urgent bug!
It's easy to say in hindsight that this is a 'fundamentally incorrect design', now that we know all this.
That it is and I'm not claiming to speak with anything other than hindsight. But that doesn't change the situation. With current modern knowledge and eyes, there is no denying that a logging library executing code from strings is a major violation of basic design principles.
My question is, where were all these brilliant insights a month, a year, five years ago, while the library was in production use throughout the Java ecosystem? Where were the critics who are crawling out of the woodwork now?
You're not wrong. Present this scenario in any design class and the conclusion will be that a ridiculous number of eyes saw this problem and did nothing about it.
Sorry, but imho, y'all don't get to show up eight years after the fact and criticize
But we do get to do that. This is the topic of the day, it's both important to the industry and useful as a learning experience; developers are going to comment on it. Que Sera, Sera.
You keep bringing up gatekeeping. Well, telling developers when and where they can have an opinion on the work of their peers sounds to me like the bad kind of gatekeeping.
and dictate and try to pull mind games like this appeal to the sense of pride thing that you're trying to do. ('Where's your pride as a developer? Don't you want to provide this free patch for a library that you've been maintaining for years, to us who are profiting off it, on our urgent timeline, working through the weekend? Don't you feel any shame?')
I've dictated nothing. I didn't even imply that they had to follow anyone's time table, urgent or otherwise. I also didn't say anyone should feel shame about anything.
And it isn't a mind game. Maybe it doesn't apply to you, but a lot of people from all professions take pride in their work, the log4j devs among them it seems and rightly so.
And if they didn't want to, they're not competent developers? Slightly different words, same gatekeeper-y meaning.
No, that's not what I was saying. The implication is that, as competent developers that take pride in their work, they would want to fix the problem.
And judging people on their actions isn't gatekeeping. It's how one is supposed to judge other people.
Look, my argument is not that bugs/design flaws should not be fixed. It's that they should not be fixed on the high-pressure timelines of corporations which are benefiting off their unpaid labour. I say chew on it for one, two, three months. Don't let the urgency of others become your own. Don't let them dictate that you spend evenings and weekends away from your family.
On that we completely agree. Open source is volunteer work and no one can tell you what you have to do or when you have to do it. If one doesn't like how a dev runs their project, then they can always fork the repo and do the work themselves. That's the beauty of open source.
They'll be criticized no matter what they do–your comments prove that.
Pointing out a mistake isn't criticism in the negative sense of the word. No one I've seen is saying they are bad people or should be punished because they made a bad design decision, but them not being bad people also doesn't make the design decision any less bad.
doesn't mean they have to fix it over the weekend - if it is that urgent to someone who has spotted the issue then they can work over the weekend and submit a patch for the issue.
Programming languages enthusiast. Author of Learn Type Driven Development: https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/learn-type-driven-development
And it isn't a mind game. Maybe it doesn't apply to you, but a lot of people from all professions take pride in their work, the log4j devs among them it seems and rightly so.
See, that's exactly what I mean by 'mind game', this 'maybe it doesn't apply to you, but other people take pride in their work'. This is the kind of snide commentary, the mentality that 'if you don't agree with me then you must not be good at your job'. This is exactly gatekeeping.
But we do get to do that [criticize]. ... Pointing out a mistake isn't criticism in the negative sense of the word.
It's also supremely unhelpful. Nothing constructive about it. You think this needs to be pointed out to the log4j maintainers? You think they aren't intensely aware of the problem? Which part of 'Yet nothing is stopping people to bash us, for work we aren't paid for, for a feature we all dislike yet needed to keep due to backward compatibility concerns.', makes it seem like they need to be told that this feature was a mistake?
And judging people on their actions isn't gatekeeping. It's how one is supposed to judge other people.
But that's exactly it. It's not your place to judge unpaid volunteer OSS maintainers. If you actually want to help, then step up with donations or contributions. The peanut gallery can sit back down!
telling developers when and where they can have an opinion on the work of their peers sounds to me like the bad kind of gatekeeping.
That's the most made-up definition of 'gatekeeping' I've ever heard of, smh.
See, that's exactly what I mean by 'mind game', this 'maybe it doesn't apply to you, but other people take pride in their work'. This is the kind of snide commentary, the mentality that 'if you don't agree with me then you must not be good at your job'.
If I want to say someone isn't good at their job, then I'd say it directly. You are reading maliciousness in my comments where it doesn't exist. I've been treating your comments with good faith, but if you aren't going to do the same to mine, then perhaps this conversation has run its course.
It's also supremely unhelpful. Nothing constructive about it. You think this needs to be pointed out to the log4j maintainers?
Unless you're on the log4j dev team, then I've never even spoken to them, I haven't pointed anything out to them, and I definitely haven't been bashing them.
Talking about mistakes that devs have made is extremely useful and helpful to future devs to avoid making the same mistakes.
But that's exactly it. It's not your place to judge unpaid volunteer OSS maintainers.
It's not your place to tell me or anyone else who we can or can't judge.
Thanks for the interesting discussion, but since you seem to have taken this personally and are now turning to accusations and assumptions of bad faith, I think it best that we just agree to disagree.
Programming languages enthusiast. Author of Learn Type Driven Development: https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/learn-type-driven-development
Well, you came in highly praising Rich Hickey's post about open source and then proceeded to take away the exact opposite of what he said. Best of luck to you too.
For further actions, you may consider blocking this person and/or reporting abuse
We're a place where coders share, stay up-to-date and grow their careers.
It's easy to say in hindsight that this is a 'fundamentally incorrect design', now that we know all this. My question is, where were all these brilliant insights a month, a year, five years ago, while the library was in production use throughout the Java ecosystem? Where were the critics who are crawling out of the woodwork now? Sorry, but imho, y'all don't get to show up eight years after the fact and criticize and dictate and try to pull mind games like this appeal to the sense of pride thing that you're trying to do. ('Where's your pride as a developer? Don't you want to provide this free patch for a library that you've been maintaining for years, to us who are profiting off it, on our urgent timeline, working through the weekend? Don't you feel any shame?')
And if they didn't want to, they're not competent developers? Slightly different words, same gatekeeper-y meaning.
Look, my argument is not that bugs/design flaws should not be fixed. It's that they should not be fixed on the high-pressure timelines of corporations which are benefiting off their unpaid labour. I say chew on it for one, two, three months. Don't let the urgency of others become your own. Don't let them dictate that you spend evenings and weekends away from your family. They'll be criticized no matter what they do–your comments prove that. So might as well preserve their mental health while they go through that. Or even let others contribute and try to fix this supposedly urgent bug!
That it is and I'm not claiming to speak with anything other than hindsight. But that doesn't change the situation. With current modern knowledge and eyes, there is no denying that a logging library executing code from strings is a major violation of basic design principles.
You're not wrong. Present this scenario in any design class and the conclusion will be that a ridiculous number of eyes saw this problem and did nothing about it.
But we do get to do that. This is the topic of the day, it's both important to the industry and useful as a learning experience; developers are going to comment on it. Que Sera, Sera.
You keep bringing up gatekeeping. Well, telling developers when and where they can have an opinion on the work of their peers sounds to me like the bad kind of gatekeeping.
I've dictated nothing. I didn't even imply that they had to follow anyone's time table, urgent or otherwise. I also didn't say anyone should feel shame about anything.
And it isn't a mind game. Maybe it doesn't apply to you, but a lot of people from all professions take pride in their work, the log4j devs among them it seems and rightly so.
No, that's not what I was saying. The implication is that, as competent developers that take pride in their work, they would want to fix the problem.
And judging people on their actions isn't gatekeeping. It's how one is supposed to judge other people.
On that we completely agree. Open source is volunteer work and no one can tell you what you have to do or when you have to do it. If one doesn't like how a dev runs their project, then they can always fork the repo and do the work themselves. That's the beauty of open source.
Pointing out a mistake isn't criticism in the negative sense of the word. No one I've seen is saying they are bad people or should be punished because they made a bad design decision, but them not being bad people also doesn't make the design decision any less bad.
doesn't mean they have to fix it over the weekend - if it is that urgent to someone who has spotted the issue then they can work over the weekend and submit a patch for the issue.
See, that's exactly what I mean by 'mind game', this 'maybe it doesn't apply to you, but other people take pride in their work'. This is the kind of snide commentary, the mentality that 'if you don't agree with me then you must not be good at your job'. This is exactly gatekeeping.
It's also supremely unhelpful. Nothing constructive about it. You think this needs to be pointed out to the log4j maintainers? You think they aren't intensely aware of the problem? Which part of 'Yet nothing is stopping people to bash us, for work we aren't paid for, for a feature we all dislike yet needed to keep due to backward compatibility concerns.', makes it seem like they need to be told that this feature was a mistake?
But that's exactly it. It's not your place to judge unpaid volunteer OSS maintainers. If you actually want to help, then step up with donations or contributions. The peanut gallery can sit back down!
That's the most made-up definition of 'gatekeeping' I've ever heard of, smh.
If I want to say someone isn't good at their job, then I'd say it directly. You are reading maliciousness in my comments where it doesn't exist. I've been treating your comments with good faith, but if you aren't going to do the same to mine, then perhaps this conversation has run its course.
Unless you're on the log4j dev team, then I've never even spoken to them, I haven't pointed anything out to them, and I definitely haven't been bashing them.
Talking about mistakes that devs have made is extremely useful and helpful to future devs to avoid making the same mistakes.
It's not your place to tell me or anyone else who we can or can't judge.
Thanks for the interesting discussion, but since you seem to have taken this personally and are now turning to accusations and assumptions of bad faith, I think it best that we just agree to disagree.
Best of luck and have a nice day.
Well, you came in highly praising Rich Hickey's post about open source and then proceeded to take away the exact opposite of what he said. Best of luck to you too.