Literally everything I listed includes more (and more diverse) socialization than public schools can offer.
If parents are very involved in the process
By definition, they are - unlike those pawning off their kids on the state's glorified free daycare.
Even among the stereotypical homeschoolers who withdraw their kids from schools for religious reasons (and I can assure you there are plenty of secular homeschoolers, I spent the last 5 years building an LMS for them), the parents are heavily involved and the children are socialized.
That is the #1 criticism of homeschooling by a long shot (seriously, "But what about socialization?" is a running joke and a meme in homeschooling communities) and it's patently false.
Its not a joke and its not patently false. What part dont you get I am trying to make? I am just saying that by definition, if you "home school" there will be less socialization. Can you make it up? Yes, but it requires additional effort.
Am I against homeschooling? Of course not. Did I say children get better education or healthier social relationships at public schools? No. I just am saying that by definition those children that spend a big part of their day around others will have more interactions with others and socialize more than those that are home-schooled and stay at home. Dont you agree? Being in a class with 20 plus students forces you to interact with those around you if you like it or not. At home, you dont have that kind of dynamic.
By definition, they are - unlike those pawning off their kids on the state's glorified free daycare.
No they are not. To be "very" involved requires a lot of time, and that means having some good financial stability, having both parents involved and many other factors that many households do not have.
In the US homeschooling has a stronger community support, but what about other countries? In many countries you are an isolated homeschooler if you choose to take that path.
I will also address the only 2 positive points you brought that are relevant to the topic regarding homeschoolers.
Homeschoolers often meet up in local groups, when they're not free to socialize in the real world instead of a contrived box.
This is the whole point I am making. If you can organize such local groups and often meet up then go for it. What I am saying is that often this is not the case and these local groups are not formed. I personally know a few homeschoolers that never had such local groups and if they did it was very seldom they would meet up.
I seriously question your socialization if you think it has to be compulsory and uniform.
You're ignoring everything I've said about the massive time and cost savings, and the additional opportunities for socialization afforded by them; and you still haven't answered why you're giving public school parents a pass on their dereliction of parental obligations, rather than holding them to the same standard you do homeschooling parents.
I seriously question your socialization if you think it has to be compulsory and uniform.
I never said that.
I think you are misjudging and misunderstanding what I am saying and are becoming too defensive.
I like homeschooling and I see enormous benefits in it. I agree with most of the other points you mentioned about the benefits of homeschooling. I regard homeschooled children often more smart and intelligent than other non homeschooled ones. The only point I disagreed with you is the socializing one, its the challenging one to get right with homeschooling and is the biggest factor parents should care about if they decide to pull their children out of public schools. Parents have to make sure their children can meet up with other homeschoolers and organize club activities for their children, ideally on a daily basis. If this is possible, its a great option to consider pulling the out of public school.
You misjudge me if you think I am against homeschooling. My issue was simply that you made it look as if the socializing part is not an issue and no need to worry about that. In fact its the most concerning issue and should be cared most about if you decide to homeschool your children.
Of course you should care about it. But that's the thing: If you're withdrawing your child to homeschool (or making the conscious decision to do so from the start), then chances are pretty good that you do. I pointed out above how this conversation turned from "but what about socialization?" to "well sure, if the parent really cares..." (and apparently continues to do so... But again, somehow it's ok for public school parents not to care?).
And I'm saying that socialization comes in far more forms than just standing in lines with the exact same kids in the exact same groups day in, day out. It comes in the form of some of the most valuable lessons in life: Conversations with elders. And with other children of different ages. And in seeing adults interact with one another and being a part of said interactions, rather than just being "talked at" (as opposed to "spoken to") by the same authority figures every day.
Sure there are the occasional, stereotypical, isolated weirdos. There are plenty of those in public schools too, relegated to such by the cruel social structures of the popularity mob (usually the cool kids who don't amount to anything as adults).
And no, it shouldn't be "cared most about." A complete, comprehensive education (including heavy study in history, so often an afterthought in the current public obsession with STEM scores), in which socialization is just one of many components (albeit a critical one), should be top priority.
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Literally everything I listed includes more (and more diverse) socialization than public schools can offer.
By definition, they are - unlike those pawning off their kids on the state's glorified free daycare.
Even among the stereotypical homeschoolers who withdraw their kids from schools for religious reasons (and I can assure you there are plenty of secular homeschoolers, I spent the last 5 years building an LMS for them), the parents are heavily involved and the children are socialized.
My main argument was to your point:
Its not a joke and its not patently false. What part dont you get I am trying to make? I am just saying that by definition, if you "home school" there will be less socialization. Can you make it up? Yes, but it requires additional effort.
Am I against homeschooling? Of course not. Did I say children get better education or healthier social relationships at public schools? No. I just am saying that by definition those children that spend a big part of their day around others will have more interactions with others and socialize more than those that are home-schooled and stay at home. Dont you agree? Being in a class with 20 plus students forces you to interact with those around you if you like it or not. At home, you dont have that kind of dynamic.
No they are not. To be "very" involved requires a lot of time, and that means having some good financial stability, having both parents involved and many other factors that many households do not have.
In the US homeschooling has a stronger community support, but what about other countries? In many countries you are an isolated homeschooler if you choose to take that path.
I will also address the only 2 positive points you brought that are relevant to the topic regarding homeschoolers.
This is the whole point I am making. If you can organize such local groups and often meet up then go for it. What I am saying is that often this is not the case and these local groups are not formed. I personally know a few homeschoolers that never had such local groups and if they did it was very seldom they would meet up.
How exactly? Other than close family.
I seriously question your socialization if you think it has to be compulsory and uniform.
You're ignoring everything I've said about the massive time and cost savings, and the additional opportunities for socialization afforded by them; and you still haven't answered why you're giving public school parents a pass on their dereliction of parental obligations, rather than holding them to the same standard you do homeschooling parents.
I never said that.
I think you are misjudging and misunderstanding what I am saying and are becoming too defensive.
I like homeschooling and I see enormous benefits in it. I agree with most of the other points you mentioned about the benefits of homeschooling. I regard homeschooled children often more smart and intelligent than other non homeschooled ones. The only point I disagreed with you is the socializing one, its the challenging one to get right with homeschooling and is the biggest factor parents should care about if they decide to pull their children out of public schools. Parents have to make sure their children can meet up with other homeschoolers and organize club activities for their children, ideally on a daily basis. If this is possible, its a great option to consider pulling the out of public school.
You misjudge me if you think I am against homeschooling. My issue was simply that you made it look as if the socializing part is not an issue and no need to worry about that. In fact its the most concerning issue and should be cared most about if you decide to homeschool your children.
Of course you should care about it. But that's the thing: If you're withdrawing your child to homeschool (or making the conscious decision to do so from the start), then chances are pretty good that you do. I pointed out above how this conversation turned from "but what about socialization?" to "well sure, if the parent really cares..." (and apparently continues to do so... But again, somehow it's ok for public school parents not to care?).
And I'm saying that socialization comes in far more forms than just standing in lines with the exact same kids in the exact same groups day in, day out. It comes in the form of some of the most valuable lessons in life: Conversations with elders. And with other children of different ages. And in seeing adults interact with one another and being a part of said interactions, rather than just being "talked at" (as opposed to "spoken to") by the same authority figures every day.
Sure there are the occasional, stereotypical, isolated weirdos. There are plenty of those in public schools too, relegated to such by the cruel social structures of the popularity mob (usually the cool kids who don't amount to anything as adults).
And no, it shouldn't be "cared most about." A complete, comprehensive education (including heavy study in history, so often an afterthought in the current public obsession with STEM scores), in which socialization is just one of many components (albeit a critical one), should be top priority.