@Ashlee You mentioned that similar behavior across gender receives different labels (bitchy vs assertive). Why have you chosen to label this as 'instigative' instead of 'thought provoking' , 'contributing to a discussion' , or 'challenging my beliefs'?
I don't think women should try to be like men (he did it first is not a good moral compass), however it is important to emphasize standing up for yourself (which goes both ways), men shouldn't feel as though they can't inquire about things just because a woman has spoken from experience.
I had a previous conversation which was challenging to articulate in such a manner that wouldn't kill discussion. Your approach to responding was exactly my concern.
As I write this I don't have expectations of continued dialog, not because you are a women but because of the tactics I see you use to close down a conversation.
"The less information we have about a person, the more actual similarity affects liking"
Now I wouldn't argue not to write, but don't you think it is interesting how we use race, sex, and appearances to establish similarity before we are aware of any actual similarity.
I think I can lend some sanity here, after reading the thread.
@franticcoder87
, the issue many of the others in the thread are having with this is that, often, when someone in a group experiencing discrimination points out that what is being done to the group is wrong, it is a common counter-point for someone, especially someone from the privileged group, to remind everyone "You should be nice to my group too!"
It's not okay, for two reasons:
1) It implies that <underprivileged group> is wanting inequality.
2) It shifts the focus back onto you and <privileged group>.
Of course everyone should be treated with respect, but this isn't about men and how they're treated. It's about women, and the crap they have to deal with regularly.
The author, and the majority of women in tech, are wanting equality. But that doesn't exist; women often don't get the respect that many men demand for themselves.
As to the content of the article, it is entirely justified. Read about the Paradox of Tolerance
I understand if you did not realize the impact of your words. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, it can be very difficult to put oneself in the shoes of another. You may well not have intended harm.
However, whether you meant to or not, you echoed a common "shutdown" statement frequently used against women and other underprivileged groups. The author and other people in the thread are not out of line to be angry. It is impossible to know your intent, especially when your actions are similar to those of many who intend harm.
In the future, when you find you've done this, accept the correction, apologize, and then stop responding to the thread. The more you try to defend yourself, the more you add fuel to the fire you started. Accidentally starting a fire can be easily forgiven; deliberately pouring gasoline on it is not so easily overlooked.
I hope this helps you understand the issue here, and that we can move on.
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I think it's very sad that this instigative comment is your first comment on this platform.
@Ashlee You mentioned that similar behavior across gender receives different labels (bitchy vs assertive). Why have you chosen to label this as 'instigative' instead of 'thought provoking' , 'contributing to a discussion' , or 'challenging my beliefs'?
I don't think women should try to be like men (he did it first is not a good moral compass), however it is important to emphasize standing up for yourself (which goes both ways), men shouldn't feel as though they can't inquire about things just because a woman has spoken from experience.
I had a previous conversation which was challenging to articulate in such a manner that wouldn't kill discussion. Your approach to responding was exactly my concern.
As I write this I don't have expectations of continued dialog, not because you are a women but because of the tactics I see you use to close down a conversation.
I don't think I understand how the articles out there wouldn't represent you.
Humans have a mantality to congregate into groups and generally that come with similarities.
psychologytoday.com/us/blog/close-...
"The less information we have about a person, the more actual similarity affects liking"
Now I wouldn't argue not to write, but don't you think it is interesting how we use race, sex, and appearances to establish similarity before we are aware of any actual similarity.
See:
I think I can lend some sanity here, after reading the thread.
@franticcoder87 , the issue many of the others in the thread are having with this is that, often, when someone in a group experiencing discrimination points out that what is being done to the group is wrong, it is a common counter-point for someone, especially someone from the privileged group, to remind everyone "You should be nice to my group too!"
It's not okay, for two reasons:
1) It implies that
<underprivileged group>is wanting inequality.2) It shifts the focus back onto you and
<privileged group>.Of course everyone should be treated with respect, but this isn't about men and how they're treated. It's about women, and the crap they have to deal with regularly.
The author, and the majority of women in tech, are wanting equality. But that doesn't exist; women often don't get the respect that many men demand for themselves.
As to the content of the article, it is entirely justified. Read about the Paradox of Tolerance
I understand if you did not realize the impact of your words. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, it can be very difficult to put oneself in the shoes of another. You may well not have intended harm.
However, whether you meant to or not, you echoed a common "shutdown" statement frequently used against women and other underprivileged groups. The author and other people in the thread are not out of line to be angry. It is impossible to know your intent, especially when your actions are similar to those of many who intend harm.
In the future, when you find you've done this, accept the correction, apologize, and then stop responding to the thread. The more you try to defend yourself, the more you add fuel to the fire you started. Accidentally starting a fire can be easily forgiven; deliberately pouring gasoline on it is not so easily overlooked.
I hope this helps you understand the issue here, and that we can move on.