How long did you have to wait?

QUESTION

How long did you have to wait until you got your first interview?

Background

I graduated from Flatiron School in March. I had a couple projects and not much else to show for my studies, except a tremendous hunger to keep learning and creating as many apps as quickly as I could.

After moving to Austin, Texas in mid-May I have:

• sent out over 300 applications
• built over 10 new apps and two different portfolio sites
• had a few different conversations with recruiters
• attended virtual meetups
• networked on all the social media platforms
• coded consistently every day between 6-10 hours a day

And I have yet to have ONE interview. Is that crazy?

FOLLOW-UP QUESTION

Do you ever wonder what in the world is wrong with you?

I would love to hear YOUR experiences and how you deal with these kinds of obstacles / pressure to stay relevant and hopeful that things will turn around!

I am not a negative guy, but when I look back at all the hard work I've been putting in, I am almost astounded that I haven't even had one interview. Makes you think!

Comments

[Annie Taylor Chen]

Hi James, yesterday I read a wonderful book on how to create an awesome portfolio, especially for juniors. He has a lot of experiences coaching students and has been at the hiring side too. I think you should give it a read: (it's FREE)
joshwcomeau.com/effective-portfolio/

[Andrew Baisden]

Getting interviews was quite easy for me in 2019 it did not take more than a few days or even a week. But now because of covid the world has turned upside down 😅

[Annie Taylor Chen]

I came to this article and thought I could share with you:
dev.to/jacobjzhang/getting-your-fi...

"In today's job climate, provided you keep improving your resume, it could take anywhere from one to six months to land something after graduating from school or a bootcamp. If you've been building up your resume with personal projects, contract/consulting work, and OSS projects-- and it takes longer than six months-- you should try to identify what the biggest blocker might be."

There there, maybe a number you can refer to. ;)

[Annie Taylor Chen]

Sorry to hear this, but... all grads this year is particularly unlucky due to the pandemic. Before we have to compete with CS grads, now, not only them, but also other seniors developers who lost jobs!

One possible way is that you dig into algorithm, if you can pass those, there is a chance to work for some remote work companies.... those often use that as a first step of screening. Of course, to us self-taught people this is just as daunting as getting a CS degree...

As for portfolio, think about what your potential clients would want. Build an MVP that's as serious as possible. Companies often want to see if you understand the whole aspect of project, not one page app.

Seeking open source project and contribute to that, or even consider unpaid internship (I hate that but now it has to be an option) to gain "team work" experience, mentorship, and possible recommendation from another developer. With this, it would be easier as you're somewhat "vetted" by some developer. I've seen quite a few graduating from the same school you mentioned posting msg, none had an easy time. So you're not alone.... it's just not easy, especially this year. :(

[James Cox]

Annie, thank you for your reply and insight!

Open source is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. I have yet to contribute on any serious level (other than silly typos and things like that) and a huge part of me has some serious imposter syndrome when it comes to contributing to other code bases, but I know it's an important step and I should definitely dig in sooner than later.

[Annie Taylor Chen]

Yeah I understand. I often feel the same! But maybe you can also do a larger project and put the code on github, it’s kinda open source too except there’s no pr etc... but it’s a start! Some, but not all, good companies do look at those. Unfortunately if it’s only recruiters or hr they are unlikely to check your code but you can still persuade them by having a good portfolio with meaningful projects.

[Justin Wozniak]

I'm in the same boat 😔

Graduated in January... I've had a couple interviews but no takers yet.

The day will come tho, for all of us!!

Just keep at it bud 🐸

[James Cox]

Thanks Justin, sorry you're having to deal with all this too. But I'm sure you're right and we can laugh at all this one day.

[Mike Bybee]

Formal (not freelancing), full-time (not as a client value-add in an IT role) development? More than a decade.

After school (non-traditional college grad)? A few months after getting an IT degree I no longer had any interest in using (but got just to show that I knew what I already knew for SysAdmin jobs I was no longer looking for upon graduation), and a month before I began my second degree program (this time for development, and again just to prove I knew what I already knew, just as useless as the first).

I advise neither the shotgun nor the sniper approach to applying. Get yourself a nice kitted-out AR-15 instead. You want both accuracy and capacity; taking not a few, but rather several, well-placed shots.

What do I mean by this?

1. Set up catch-all templates for both your resume and your cover letter, but apply with variations on the latter at the very least. a. Your resume shouldn't change much. You're just adding skills and experience (and/or education/certs). When you add, chances are you'll want every company you apply to to see it. Only tailor it if there are things in your skills section obviously irrelevant to that particular role. b. You cover letter needs to be personalized, or else it's pointless; not just to the job description, but based on your own research of the company, its stated vision/mission, and any opportunities you may have identified in said research (Stack Overflow Careers makes this easy by pre-populating the cover letter you filled in from your last application).
2. Your application is unique, though you may still be able to form a text template based on recurring questions you encounter (no matter how stupid they may be, e.g. "In 150 characters or less, tell us what makes you a great fit").
3. Think long and hard about what a company reveals about its culture by making the application needlessly difficult. This includes those who ask you to upload a resume and then still expect you to manually fill your employment/education/certs, those who try to exploit "Quick Apply" (for greater reach) but then hide "Send an email to [e-mail] to apply" to filter out those who actually use the mechanism, or those who expect you to record a one-way video interview (because they can't be bothered to give you their time, while expecting you to give yours). Such behaviors are red flags about what it's like to work for them, and your time is better spent on other potential employers.
4. "Real projects" need not be huge. I love it when applicants create utilities. Maybe it's an ESLint config, or some nifty little CLI tool, or a shell script to provision a fresh Mac or Linux install. If they're useful, give them repos and link to them on your portfolio site (note to self, both GitHub and portfolio are ridiculously out of date).
5. (adding to the gun metaphor, defend those you care about): Don't ever waste your time on someone who demands your references upfront (most likely a staffing agency). You depend on these people, they're doing you a favor, and you need to protect them from overexposure (which they will get if you submit them for preemptive reference checks).

[Dave]

I submit that an AK would be better than an AR, and the trigger should be on single shot (maybe burst, at a push). Never full auto.

The most important part, is the gunmanship. Are you standing right? Are you holding it right? Are you breathing correctly between shots? Etc.

But I think the gun metaphor still holds up in both our cases.

[Stargator]

Hey James,

I graduated in May of 2010. It took me 4 months before I had prospects respond to me. Like you I spent every day working on my resume and searching for jobs. As others have stated, I spent time to Taylor my resume to each job I was working on. I didn't have as much experience as you, so I tried to tailor as much as I could. But I also wanted to show my broad experience.

Uou seem to have more experience and can likely cut some of it out to only the experience that directly relates to given ad can stay in the resume.

For me, after 4 months I went to a job fair at my university and I applied to a job online. There was a recruiter at the job fair that'was interested and gave me the info to apply for opportunity.

The recruiter for the online ad called me and asked me a few questions. And then asked when I would be available for a phone interview. The job was in another state. The point of view was scheduled the next day and very quickly afterward they gave me an offer.

I took the offer and started working two weeks later. That was then this is a whole another market and it's unique to the current situation.

But just take it one day at a time, give yourself time to breathe and reevaluate what opportunities you actually interested in. There's no point in applying for a job if you don't think it's interesting to you or that you would be engaged in it every day.

However, one big piece of advice I would give you is concerning after you get a job offer. As a Junior level person, you may not be able to negotiate the salary much. But do take a look at the cost of living where the job is located and make sure that the salary offered Will be able to help you live there.

For me, I moved to Washington DC and had a $49,500 salary. At the time that, covered my rent and utilities but didn't leave much for savings. Luckily, after 9 months I found a place I could split with a roommate. Stayed there for 3 years and I never paid near the same rent as I did when I lived alone.

[James Cox]

Thanks, Stargator, for sharing your experiences.

I do understand that the current climate has its own unique challenges. I think more companies are offering remote-only roles right now, which actually could be a factor that works in my favor. But, like you and others pointed out, I was going about it all wrong.

There is one wrinkle to all this I didn't mention before. It is a bit maddening, but I can only laugh about it now. When I attended Flatirion, I was slated to graduate in January, but I was struggling with the JavaScript section, and even though I could have pushed on, I decided to re-do that section over. I switched to a different cohort with a new teacher and new classmates, and I am incredibly glad that I did. It was just the right environment for me and I learned how to push myself and found the passion for coding that was missing prior.

However, my first cohort graduated in January and they were able to attend in-person meetups (before everything shutdown) and I know that a few of them landed offers and roles almost immediately. Flatiron had a lot of resources to help new graduates make connections and connect with employers. Unfortunately Covid disrupted a lot of those resources. And that's when my cohort and I graduate. Mid-march when all the s*** was hitting the fan. Shortly after that everything shut down.

Had I graduated in January I might have had the face to face time with companies. However, in my heart I know I would have still been struggling, not in love with coding, and not nearly as strong a candidate.

I think that's partly why I threw my resume at anything and everything. Almost like a panic move, because I wasn't going to get to meet employers face to face, and I wanted my name out there. I am pretty sure I received advice from some to just apply and apply and apply. What's the worst that can happen?

Well, apparently you can get a bad reputation!

I know we are all doing our best. I just need to do my "best" differently.

Thanks again for replying and hopefully sooner than later I look back at all this and laugh a little.

[Hemant Joshi]

How long did you have to wait?

I am in hurry and had a overview of your post, but the answer to the title come from my heart..

The same what I ask myself before sleep every day, how long will I have to?

I remeber it was a buzz in my head

• how long I have to wait untill I learn react? When I learnt react
• how long will I have to wait to learn nextJs After I learnt.
• how long will I have to wait to graduate and placed in Facebook, Google or a Tech Giant?

🙎

I kinda feel like Life is for a loop of buzz how long will i have to wait
Where the arguments are (i>0, i<infinity, i++)
🤔

Day 0 waiting for day 1

Day 99999 waiting for day 100000

The title got into my head🙂

[James Cox]

I hear your point! We are ALL waiting for the next thing. Whatever that might be.

But, I'm still glad I asked the question. I got a lot of great responses and feedback, and a nice little wake up call, so I don't keep running around in circles and never finding my path!

[Joseph Mawa]

300 applications! Dude that is serious. I am in the same situation too, though i haven't sent a single application yet. I have been learning web development for almost a year now (I started in September) last year, 5 months full time since lock down started in march but the difference is i haven't sent a single application yet. Still building my portfolio. Unfortunately for us, these are not normal times but we need to keep trying. Hopefully things will turn out for the best.

[James Cox]

I am positive things will definitely turn out for the best! I am sure that I will look back at this post and laugh a lot. I am glad I asked this question, because I have received a lot of great feedback and advice! So I don't regret putting myself out there and now I've got a lot of work ahead of me!