We are just discussing how we are creating software. It's not as if it takes longer to create/maintain.
We're deliberately staying away from languages, and maybe it's just my approach, but rigidly sticking to SOLID principles (or any principles for that matter) certainly does take longer than me writing code and then tidying it up to obey principles whenever that's needed.
Don't get me wrong, I follow SOLID closely, right out of the gate, but just not strictly.
When you are writing class A and B, and A relies on B, but B is not yet written and you start with writing A, surely you'll program against the interface of B instead of its actual implementation?
That approach is counter-intuitive, at least to me. If A depends on B, but B is not written yet... I'd be starting with writing B. Only in the case that B is being written by someone else on the team would we agree an interface up front so both can work independently.
Just keep it simple is all that I'm advocating here.
I'm much the same, hence why I originally posted here that I think I'm somewhere between you & the original author.
You write tests for logic, if your getters and setters have logic...
In that case, I'd submit that they aren't getters and setters, and have side-effects that violate SOLID principles.
"In that case, I'd submit that they aren't getters and setters, and have side-effects that violate SOLID principles."
Hence my ".... for whatever reason", there's more to logic than side effects. For example, a myriad of if statements or whatever. All things that don't belong in a getter or setter, but if you insist that it should be in the getter or setter, at least write a contract (=test) on how you intend the getter or setter should behave.
And that's the core of this whole discussion right? Is it necessary to test logic that isn't directly visible to the outside world?
You could say, if it isn't directly visible then it doesn't need to be tested. I'd say if the code is there, it is there for a reason, if it there for a reason it should be tested. If the code is not there for a reason, get rid of it. And all these questions would've been circumvented if your tests were written during the design of a class.
You can potentially test this in a big integration test, but, why would you? I'd say that's a violation of KISS principles because the coupling between a class and its contract is lost and I, as a developer working on your code need to jump through hoops just to find out how you intended your piece of software to work.
"We're deliberately staying away from languages, and maybe it's just my approach, but rigidly sticking to SOLID principles (or any principles for that matter) certainly does take longer than me writing code and then tidying it up to obey principles whenever that's needed."
Sure, perhaps, I don't think I'm necessarily faster than a two-step approach. And everything perfect in one go is utopic, sometimes it takes refactoring to get things right.
I do feel like it is our responsibility as software engineers to either convince our employer that a standardized approach is beneficial, and also that as an expert in the field, it is good to say no. I hope that writing standardized software doesn't only occur in a perfect world.
I do feel like it is our responsibility as software engineers to either convince our employer that a standardized approach is beneficial, and also that as an expert in the field, it is good to say no.
On this, we both agree. I also know that I've been in situations in the past where arguing for standardisation has fallen on deaf ears.
There's a multitude of reasons why others in the business will try to get us to cut corners, to deliver slightly faster etc. Sometimes we can say no, sometimes we're overruled.
Hence my belief that 100% standardised code, does indeed only exist in a perfect world. Maybe 80% or so is a more realistic aim.
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We're deliberately staying away from languages, and maybe it's just my approach, but rigidly sticking to SOLID principles (or any principles for that matter) certainly does take longer than me writing code and then tidying it up to obey principles whenever that's needed.
Don't get me wrong, I follow SOLID closely, right out of the gate, but just not strictly.
That approach is counter-intuitive, at least to me. If A depends on B, but B is not written yet... I'd be starting with writing B. Only in the case that B is being written by someone else on the team would we agree an interface up front so both can work independently.
I'm much the same, hence why I originally posted here that I think I'm somewhere between you & the original author.
In that case, I'd submit that they aren't getters and setters, and have side-effects that violate SOLID principles.
Hence my ".... for whatever reason", there's more to logic than side effects. For example, a myriad of if statements or whatever. All things that don't belong in a getter or setter, but if you insist that it should be in the getter or setter, at least write a contract (=test) on how you intend the getter or setter should behave.
And that's the core of this whole discussion right? Is it necessary to test logic that isn't directly visible to the outside world?
You could say, if it isn't directly visible then it doesn't need to be tested. I'd say if the code is there, it is there for a reason, if it there for a reason it should be tested. If the code is not there for a reason, get rid of it. And all these questions would've been circumvented if your tests were written during the design of a class.
You can potentially test this in a big integration test, but, why would you? I'd say that's a violation of KISS principles because the coupling between a class and its contract is lost and I, as a developer working on your code need to jump through hoops just to find out how you intended your piece of software to work.
Sure, perhaps, I don't think I'm necessarily faster than a two-step approach. And everything perfect in one go is utopic, sometimes it takes refactoring to get things right.
I do feel like it is our responsibility as software engineers to either convince our employer that a standardized approach is beneficial, and also that as an expert in the field, it is good to say no. I hope that writing standardized software doesn't only occur in a perfect world.
On this, we both agree. I also know that I've been in situations in the past where arguing for standardisation has fallen on deaf ears.
There's a multitude of reasons why others in the business will try to get us to cut corners, to deliver slightly faster etc. Sometimes we can say no, sometimes we're overruled.
Hence my belief that 100% standardised code, does indeed only exist in a perfect world. Maybe 80% or so is a more realistic aim.