I have to say that many of your points hit home with me, but right now I'm on something of a "downside" when it comes to my career. Or maybe I'm just moving sideways with it? I dunno at this point. A little background:
I was let go from my last position as an SWE from a small shop back at the end of February. No problem I thought, I've got savings - let's take a week to gather thoughts, then hit up my recruiter. Did that, got some leads, a few interviews lined up...and then...pandemic hit. All of that dried up.
Ok - I can handle this...
June came around, and I turned...let's see...ah, yes - 47 years old. Sigh. Still nothing from my recruiters at this point (I enlisted a second that I had used in the past). Seems things were barren, but I wasn't certain, so at the end of June I decided to strike out on my own, first with LinkedIn, then Indeed, and see what was around.
Found a few things - posted out my resume - but interviews were hit or miss - mostly miss. A very few went very well...got to the third round on a couple...but both fizzled out at the last moment. One said they wanted to keep my resume on tap, and they'd call me if anything turned up (interestingly, they did call me at the beginning of November...but I haven't heard anything since...sigh).
Part of this I know is just due to the times were in...but the last two interviews went so far south on me, coupled with a failure on trying out HackerRank to some end of "improving my skills" - that I kinda went full sabbatical. I'm not sure whether I'll get back into it or not. I haven't interviewed or applied for anything in a couple of months now. But savings won't last forever, and UI runs out in a month...
So what happened? Well - I'm not really sure, but I kinda feel stupid all the same - almost like "imposter syndrome". I don't have anything more than an associates degree from a long defunct, out-of-business, probably-being-sued, VoTech school. I might as well not have a degree, for all it's worth. But I do have close to 30 years of SWE experience. I thought that was worth something. But maybe not? I have the drive to learn new tech, and I can do it fast. But I've never been a project lead. I'm not sure how I got to be 47 years old, and not be more than a programmer...but that's what has happened.
And because of my lack of schooling - no real "computer science" learning to speak of, everything self taught (I grew up on 8-bit computers that plugged into a TV) - I don't know things. You ask me a big-O notation question, at best I can only guess at the answer. You ask me something about a particular way to do something involving a particular kind data structure or algorithm any more complex than a link-list sorted by basic sorting algorithm, or maybe a binary tree structure on a good day - you'll get a virtual blank stare from me.
It isn't that I haven't heard of these things. It isn't that I don't know that they are fundamental things in computing. It's that, number one, I have never, ever, had to regularly use either or any of that, for what I have done in software development. It isn't like I was writing the latest database engine, or search algorithms, or some new language compiler. Certainly, in those areas and others, it's needed.
But for your regular CRUD style applications written in common programming languages and such? Nope - nothing there. If there's a problem along the way, something tearing thru resources, we'll take a look at it then. Let's get the steak on the grill first, we can worry about sizzle later...
Or maybe I just got lucky or something, and never had such problems thrown my way in nearly 30 years? I'm not sure any more. And honestly, I'm beginning not to care. Except for the fact that I do, because bills and mortgage. And - what else can I do with my life? Remember - I don't have a degree. I'm almost 50, and changing careers at this point is...well...probably on the side of impossible, unless it's being a greeter at Walmart. Oh wait...that's gone now, too.
There's no way I could ever even think about trying to learn, at this late stage, everything I'd need to know about data structures, algorithms, sorting, etc - all that low-level comp-sci stuff...that for some reason, I'm finding myself being interviewed about (well, at least a couple of times).
My cynical side is saying to me, and I don't know how much to trust it, "Psst...They are interviewing with these questions as a proxy for age discrimination."
A sign of the times? Weed out the olds and those who've forgotten over time, long since graduation at least, to get in the young-n-dumb 20-somethings who are cheaper on the payroll and insurance rates? Especially in this time of Covid-19? Seems plausible, but it might just be my paranoia talking.
So...in the meantime...I'm re-inventing myself as a Youtube Vlogger. I figure that if there are tons of people watching other people do the dumbest stuff on the planet (a TikTok for mixing paint!? WTH?) - and making money at it...well, why can't I?
Worst case scenario, I think, will be that I market myself as a "Youtube Video Editor for Hire", or something of that nature. Maybe in the meantime the world will get back to some semblance of "normal". Then again, perhaps it's moved on without me...a gaping 10-month hole (and growing) in my resume seems to be a strong indicator of that possibility, too.
Did I mention that I don't really have the means to retire - ever? Sigh...wish I had a way to go speak to my 20 year old self and knock some sense into him...
Wow. Lots to unpack here. And I won't even try to respond to everything you've written - although I genuinely appreciate your predicament.
On one level, it seems like you haven't really been interviewing "enough". I'm not saying that's your fault. I haven't been in the job market since right before the COVID stuff hit, so I may not have the best perspective. But I know that when I'm really searching for something new, I can often get some kinda interview nearly every day.
But if I read through the lines in your narrative, it sounds like maybe you're not really hammering the interview trail cuz your hearts not in it. You've got doubts about whether you really wanna be doing this at all? And if that's the case, then, I feel for you. But I don't really know what to say. Even if there a 1,000 surgeon jobs out there and you've been doing surgery for 20 years, none of that matters if you aren't really excited about doing surgery anymore.
I will say that the problems you've run into in your interviews are real. But it feels to me like they're getting blown out of proportion - because you haven't had enough interviews to allow you to put them all into context.
I've experienced many of the same things. In fact, I've written several articles on Dev.to about this stuff. I too have nothing but an associates degree (in Electronics, no less). I too can blank when you ask about a lot of that theory stuff - because, as you've pointed out, much of it has no use in "real" applications.
I do not think that asking college-kinda theory questions is a way to weed out the Olds. I think it's a way to weed out the non-degree holders. There are some shops where everyone has a 4-year computer science degree - either because they require it, or because it just happened that way. When you interview for a job in one of those shops, you're gonna get a lotta college-kinda theory questions. Cuz, in their frame of reference, that is a way to judge the basic knowledge level of candidates - cuz they had to learn that stuff when they were being trained.
The interview thing is very hit-or-miss - even if you have a ton of experience. To this day, I can go on an interview and completely bomb it - because I don't align with what their people think a dev should say / do / know. And then I can turn around and ace the next interview. Just depends on the interviewers. And you have no control over it. That's why the only real "solution" is to try to line up as many interviews as possible. I've also had many interviews where no one ever asks me a single question about Big O notation or binary trees or any of that other crap.
Thank you for the thoughtful feedback. And I wish you luck!
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I have to say that many of your points hit home with me, but right now I'm on something of a "downside" when it comes to my career. Or maybe I'm just moving sideways with it? I dunno at this point. A little background:
I was let go from my last position as an SWE from a small shop back at the end of February. No problem I thought, I've got savings - let's take a week to gather thoughts, then hit up my recruiter. Did that, got some leads, a few interviews lined up...and then...pandemic hit. All of that dried up.
Ok - I can handle this...
June came around, and I turned...let's see...ah, yes - 47 years old. Sigh. Still nothing from my recruiters at this point (I enlisted a second that I had used in the past). Seems things were barren, but I wasn't certain, so at the end of June I decided to strike out on my own, first with LinkedIn, then Indeed, and see what was around.
Found a few things - posted out my resume - but interviews were hit or miss - mostly miss. A very few went very well...got to the third round on a couple...but both fizzled out at the last moment. One said they wanted to keep my resume on tap, and they'd call me if anything turned up (interestingly, they did call me at the beginning of November...but I haven't heard anything since...sigh).
Part of this I know is just due to the times were in...but the last two interviews went so far south on me, coupled with a failure on trying out HackerRank to some end of "improving my skills" - that I kinda went full sabbatical. I'm not sure whether I'll get back into it or not. I haven't interviewed or applied for anything in a couple of months now. But savings won't last forever, and UI runs out in a month...
So what happened? Well - I'm not really sure, but I kinda feel stupid all the same - almost like "imposter syndrome". I don't have anything more than an associates degree from a long defunct, out-of-business, probably-being-sued, VoTech school. I might as well not have a degree, for all it's worth. But I do have close to 30 years of SWE experience. I thought that was worth something. But maybe not? I have the drive to learn new tech, and I can do it fast. But I've never been a project lead. I'm not sure how I got to be 47 years old, and not be more than a programmer...but that's what has happened.
And because of my lack of schooling - no real "computer science" learning to speak of, everything self taught (I grew up on 8-bit computers that plugged into a TV) - I don't know things. You ask me a big-O notation question, at best I can only guess at the answer. You ask me something about a particular way to do something involving a particular kind data structure or algorithm any more complex than a link-list sorted by basic sorting algorithm, or maybe a binary tree structure on a good day - you'll get a virtual blank stare from me.
It isn't that I haven't heard of these things. It isn't that I don't know that they are fundamental things in computing. It's that, number one, I have never, ever, had to regularly use either or any of that, for what I have done in software development. It isn't like I was writing the latest database engine, or search algorithms, or some new language compiler. Certainly, in those areas and others, it's needed.
But for your regular CRUD style applications written in common programming languages and such? Nope - nothing there. If there's a problem along the way, something tearing thru resources, we'll take a look at it then. Let's get the steak on the grill first, we can worry about sizzle later...
Or maybe I just got lucky or something, and never had such problems thrown my way in nearly 30 years? I'm not sure any more. And honestly, I'm beginning not to care. Except for the fact that I do, because bills and mortgage. And - what else can I do with my life? Remember - I don't have a degree. I'm almost 50, and changing careers at this point is...well...probably on the side of impossible, unless it's being a greeter at Walmart. Oh wait...that's gone now, too.
There's no way I could ever even think about trying to learn, at this late stage, everything I'd need to know about data structures, algorithms, sorting, etc - all that low-level comp-sci stuff...that for some reason, I'm finding myself being interviewed about (well, at least a couple of times).
My cynical side is saying to me, and I don't know how much to trust it, "Psst...They are interviewing with these questions as a proxy for age discrimination."
A sign of the times? Weed out the olds and those who've forgotten over time, long since graduation at least, to get in the young-n-dumb 20-somethings who are cheaper on the payroll and insurance rates? Especially in this time of Covid-19? Seems plausible, but it might just be my paranoia talking.
So...in the meantime...I'm re-inventing myself as a Youtube Vlogger. I figure that if there are tons of people watching other people do the dumbest stuff on the planet (a TikTok for mixing paint!? WTH?) - and making money at it...well, why can't I?
Worst case scenario, I think, will be that I market myself as a "Youtube Video Editor for Hire", or something of that nature. Maybe in the meantime the world will get back to some semblance of "normal". Then again, perhaps it's moved on without me...a gaping 10-month hole (and growing) in my resume seems to be a strong indicator of that possibility, too.
Did I mention that I don't really have the means to retire - ever? Sigh...wish I had a way to go speak to my 20 year old self and knock some sense into him...
Wow. Lots to unpack here. And I won't even try to respond to everything you've written - although I genuinely appreciate your predicament.
On one level, it seems like you haven't really been interviewing "enough". I'm not saying that's your fault. I haven't been in the job market since right before the COVID stuff hit, so I may not have the best perspective. But I know that when I'm really searching for something new, I can often get some kinda interview nearly every day.
But if I read through the lines in your narrative, it sounds like maybe you're not really hammering the interview trail cuz your hearts not in it. You've got doubts about whether you really wanna be doing this at all? And if that's the case, then, I feel for you. But I don't really know what to say. Even if there a 1,000 surgeon jobs out there and you've been doing surgery for 20 years, none of that matters if you aren't really excited about doing surgery anymore.
I will say that the problems you've run into in your interviews are real. But it feels to me like they're getting blown out of proportion - because you haven't had enough interviews to allow you to put them all into context.
I've experienced many of the same things. In fact, I've written several articles on Dev.to about this stuff. I too have nothing but an associates degree (in Electronics, no less). I too can blank when you ask about a lot of that theory stuff - because, as you've pointed out, much of it has no use in "real" applications.
I do not think that asking college-kinda theory questions is a way to weed out the Olds. I think it's a way to weed out the non-degree holders. There are some shops where everyone has a 4-year computer science degree - either because they require it, or because it just happened that way. When you interview for a job in one of those shops, you're gonna get a lotta college-kinda theory questions. Cuz, in their frame of reference, that is a way to judge the basic knowledge level of candidates - cuz they had to learn that stuff when they were being trained.
The interview thing is very hit-or-miss - even if you have a ton of experience. To this day, I can go on an interview and completely bomb it - because I don't align with what their people think a dev should say / do / know. And then I can turn around and ace the next interview. Just depends on the interviewers. And you have no control over it. That's why the only real "solution" is to try to line up as many interviews as possible. I've also had many interviews where no one ever asks me a single question about Big O notation or binary trees or any of that other crap.
Thank you for the thoughtful feedback. And I wish you luck!