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Discussion on: Q: How Much of "the Kotlin Way" Is the Right Way?

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rhymes

He's wrong about how much productivity is lost/gained using dynamic vs. static.

It's funny because one could make the exact opposite argument.That's why I was saying that static vs dynamic is an argument as old as programming and a non starter in a sense. There are advantages in both.

My experience of "productivity" is higher in dynamic languages because I don't have to deal with telling the compiler which type is every single variable I use. REPLs also tend to help there. It might also be that I wasn't using the right statically typed languages :-)

The example you're using between Haskell and Clojure is definitely valid, Haskell seems clearer (though I'm not versed in either of them :D) but let me answer to your points, which make me think we have had different experiences in sw development, which is great because there's not a single way to do things.

Management never wants to pay for time to write proper tests.

I've never been asked to write or not to write tests. I've always written them, regardless of which language we were using. Tests are part of the software and I estimate them as such :-)

so minimizing the teaching space by removing potential bugs is ideal for me

Again, I went from static to dynamic and to me the first dynamic language was heaven on earth, I have bad memories of statically typed languages at the beginnning of my career :-) I like them more now.

Most dynamic languages also tend to be easier to teach in my experience, exactly because you have less stuff to read in the source file (which is always a plus) and to explain and because you can change contracts in a easier way

Typically the only person consuming my code's contracts is myself, and a refactor is completely under my control. When I change something from returning a tuple to a fully reified Type, that's on me and affects no external customers.

You can do the same in dynamic language. Changing contracts is always easy if you're the sole consumer of the code. BTW duck typing in dynamic languages tends to help here. A real world example: at some point in Python 3 they changed the internal type returned by the function range() from a list to an iterator. That didn't break because they behave the same way to the consumer 99.99% of the time, they just uniformed all functions returning iterators in the standard library IIRC.

When I am developing libraries that are consumed by others, new functionality becomes a new contract, and old contracts are left in place with sunset warnings and migration guides.

Yeah but this is the same with dynamic languages. Dynamic doesn't mean "I break the contract without telling you and now it's your problem". Good programming practices usally span between types of languages.

I love lisps. They're cool and mathy.

Cool, but Lisp dialects, if I'm not mistaken, are all dynamically typed

I love ML. Pattern matching is something I miss in any language.

Elixir seem to be having a good run, it has pattern matching! No JVM though. Maybe your ideal language is a ML for JVM. Ocaml-Java seems to be dead unfortunately.

If you make me use a strongly typed language without something like Hindley–Milner type inference (golang, yours doesn't go far enough), then I will be sad.

Sorry, I'm not sure what is that. I'm going to look it up :-)