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Discussion on: Daily Standup Meetings are useless

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rolfstreefkerk profile image
Rolf Streefkerk

that's not exclusive to your software. Any Kanban board can indicate problems with items when they're blocking allotted in progress issues or have been worked on over the average issue estimated effort.

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uclusion profile image
David Israel

Is exclusive if you want to be able to skip the meetings. A Kanban board can be tricked out to display anything but not to get questions answered, pause stories or take up new ones while getting approval online.

On top of which you need a notifications system that does much better than a Kanban + Slack combo.

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rolfstreefkerk profile image
Rolf Streefkerk

The original purpose of Kanban is to get insights into the manufacturing process and that especially includes blockers to progress. So yes, I agree if you do not follow this process and setup your board properly to the process, this will be less effective.

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uclusion profile image
David Israel

It doesn't matter how you setup your board. A Kanban board is a display only tool - you can't effectively have communication inside of it or get approvals for new stories or reviews of existing work.

It shouldn't surprise you very much that 1950's factory sticky notes don't cover all aspects of modern software development.

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rolfstreefkerk profile image
Rolf Streefkerk

This is really making a mockery of Kanban for software development, that's not at all how it's done. I suggest you review this excellent talk from a Microsoft employee on how they've effectively used the Kanban method to tackle issues that we've just discussed.
youtube.com/watch?v=CD0y-aU1sXo

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uclusion profile image
David Israel

Wow the part on estimation in that video is cringey. And naturally it doesn't cover any of the issues we are discussing around the standup like

  • What you do in between standups
  • How can you get asynchronous approvals for a different story in case you are blocked. (And asynchronous reviews as well.)
  • How do you share valuable information (outside of meetings)
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murkrage profile image
Mike Ekkel

What you do in between standups

Work, hopefully 😂

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uclusion profile image
David Israel

Not according to the Scrum guide:

The Daily Scrum is not the only time Developers are allowed to adjust their plan. They often meet throughout the day for more detailed discussions about adapting or re-planning the rest of the Sprint’s work.

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dvddpl profile image
Davide de Paolis

exactly. this is not a software/tool issue, rather a communication/soft skills one.
Since we do remoting (started in March 2021 due to Covid and we will probably go on like that even after) we are doing Slack status updates when everyone signs-off at the end of the day.
They perfectly answer the first question of a Standup ( What did you do yesterday - in this case, today) and I find those updates very informative and very useful. But the main point of the standup is raising the awareness of potential blockers and share information that cannot emerge by moving cards around.

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uclusion profile image
David Israel

A meeting is a tool. There are limits to what can be accomplished with synchronous meetings as there are limits to any tool. No matter how well you run the standup or do soft skills communication the meeting happens point in time.

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dvddpl profile image
Davide de Paolis

everything is a tool. language is a tool. outcome varies depending how you use the tool.
in my post I am addressing a specific problem related to communication and softskills in the people attending standups, which I noticed in 10 years of Daily Scrums, in different teams and projects.
I am absolutely fine with Daily Scrum and Kanban, how they are meant, and I am fine with Jira and Trello ( never used other tools so far, so I can;t say) , just wanted to stress how too often we overlook the main point of it, forgetting the blockers and limiting it to a round-up of how was your day yesterday..

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dvddpl profile image
Davide de Paolis

having said all that. I'd suggest to continue the conversation about the concept and not about your specific tool @uclusion thanks

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uclusion profile image
David Israel

The concept that we somehow forget to mention our blockers in daily standup meetings?

So you are basically saying that in 10 years of Daily Scrums, in different teams and projects, the only thing you learned is that software developers are deeply incompetent.

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dvddpl profile image
Davide de Paolis

ah ah! you can say so :wink. or you can say that developers have really to invest more energy in soft skills and communication.
Personally, I like to talk and discuss a lot about coding and tasks, and normally the awareness of blockers emerge while chatting, via a quiet request of help on slack or by physically seeing that a dev is struggling with an issue or having lots of discussions with other members. I understand that PjM and other stakeholder might need different tools, like daily standups, which unfortunately are not often optimal. not because people are stupid, incompetent, or malicious, rather because of lack of communication skills, experience, confidence.
have a nice day

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uclusion profile image
David Israel

Yes let's imagine for a second that people are not ridiculous enough to attend a meeting whose only purpose is to mention blockers and then forget to mention blockers.

Alternatively let's hypothesize that it's the meetings fault...

Suppose for instance that to a developer a point in time meeting doesn't really serve much purpose. He after all has to continue coding throughout the day. He's going to face blockers the entire day also.

So to a developer whether or not he mentions the blockers at one particular time of day is not very relevant. The meeting makes no sense and so he doesn't take it as seriously as you.

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katafrakt profile image
Paweł Świątkowski

Can it, really? I always struggled with setting up a kanban board in JIRA which would display blockers properly (full disclosure: I'm by no means a JIRA expert, I don't event have admin rights to it usually, so maybe I miss something). The only way it could be done was by setting up a column called "blocked", but it violates the rule that the tasks should only move forward. Other ways, such as a flag, were not visible enough, when looking at the board.

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uclusion profile image
David Israel

@katafrakt you didn't miss anything. Since other PM tools don't have a notification system that enforces action you are left choosing between flags and columns.

One flag or column for truly blocked and another for stories with outstanding questions or suggestions. (Or you can collapse those two types to one but that again muddles things.)

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rolfstreefkerk profile image
Rolf Streefkerk

you need to set column limits and change your workflow on the kanban board to a pull instead of a push. that means means you'll have two columns per step in your development process. Then you can set alerts if certain items remain for too long or there are too many items in a column.
That way you can spot issues in your development pipeline immediately as they happen

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uclusion profile image
David Israel

As Pawel noted there are any number of Kanban blogs explaining that is an anti-pattern. I'm just picking one at random linkedin.com/pulse/blocked-bad-bre...

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rolfstreefkerk profile image
Rolf Streefkerk

you don't understand at all what I just said, there is no blocked column at all. Again, review the video I've put down below. It works and the microsoft OS is build using this agile kanban style of working.

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uclusion profile image
David Israel

If there is no blocked column then you are using a flag and that didn't work for Pawel either.

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dvddpl profile image
Davide de Paolis

honestly.. i often dont care much if i am sticking to the orthodoxy of a method.
I adapt it to my team, my project, my workflow.

we indeed have the column BLOCKED. and i think it is very usefull because, it clearly shows that a developer CAN NOT work on something - and probably explains why they have more than one ticket IN PROGRESS at once.
but the order for us is:

TO DO - IN PROGRESS - BLOCKED - IN REVIEW - DONE
and there is hardly any going back because blocked is when the work is impossible due to forces external to the team ( further implementation is impossible without other tickets being completed, often from other departments, requirements have to be rediscussed by stakeholders etc). not because dev is sick, or cant solve a bug.

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rolfstreefkerk profile image
Rolf Streefkerk

We're going in circles and it seems clear to me you have an agenda here rather than just looking at the facts and information that has already been presented.

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rolfstreefkerk profile image
Rolf Streefkerk

Agile was never about being rigid in the process, that's the whole point of Agile to take things that work and make them fit within the context you operate.
All this talk about "this is agile", "this is not agile" seems to indicate dogmatic approaches that are actually an anti-pattern.

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dvddpl profile image
Davide de Paolis

exactly :-) it is called Agile in the end right?
and i'd like to mention 2 of the points listed here

  • Individuals and interactions over processes and tools
  • Responding to change over following a plan that;s why imho being dogmatic is as @rolfstreefkerk explained an antipattern. let's do whatever fosters good communication and helps us moving forward and faster.
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katafrakt profile image
Paweł Świątkowski • Edited

let's do whatever fosters good communication and helps us moving forward and faster

Or... How about use a software that let's us use whatever we want, not stick to shitty JIRA that forces use to change the process, because it's so limited? I mean, having the tickets marked as clearly blocked doesn't seem like rigid and dogmatic approach. Saying that you don't need it because JIRA does not support it - does (where using JIRA is a dogma).