People use StackOverflow the wrong way - and then they don't like the result.
It's not the platform's fault.
Most questions like "Help it doesn't work... " - are better asked to a friend.
Then - once you know how to formulate a question - you can ask in the right place. For example, need help with Cascading Style Sheets? Then ask in the Discord. Need help with an NPM package or git repo? Ask in the github. There are many places to ask questions - but each place has its own style.
StackOverflow's system works perfectly for what it is for. Are there jerks there? Yes. But they are everywhere. I've spent thousands of hours helping people on there - and it made me a much better developer.
If you use the wrong tool - and it doesn't get the job done - it's not the tool's fault. It's not just a free helpline. It's a way to distill commonly asked questions into a set of best answers.
People want to have their problems solved - but often they don't want to actually learn it. I have clearly explained and written out CodePens and basically given hours of tutoring and mentorship out to thousands of people - and maybe 1% of them actually learn from it. Sometimes I'll spend an hour - and then when the person gets the answer they are embarrassed and so they just delete the question - and now no one will benefit.
Trust me - I'm not in it for the points. I answer the bad questions just to help people learn how to break apart problems and ask good questions - but they often get closed - or no one upvotes them - because they aren't really going to be useful to someone else because they are too specific or aren't real questions - and more like "I don't know JavaScript - why doesn't it work" or really 7 questions in one.
You'll have to provide some examples / and I'm pretty sure they'll prove the point.
I'm glad you're in the happy minority of SO users that have had a predominantly positive experience. (Most of that is because you're on the Javascript tags, which has been observed to be considerably less representative of the behavioral toxic waste dump the rest of the site is.) I've been on StackOverflow for years, served as a volunteer reviewer for some time, and have decent reputation...but I quit for all the reasons described in the post, mainly observing those realities in terms of other users.
If a platform encourages particular behavior, and does not properly address it, it is absolutely the platform's fault. DEV isn't toxic because DEV does not allow itself to become toxic. To shrug it off and say, "aw, that's just a few bad actors" is how we've tolerated toxicity for decades in this industry.
I would argue that while SO and Dev both have the same "generate content + get eyes + sell ads" business plan, but that they have very different goals for what content is created.
I understand how you feel. I just wanted to offer another viewpoint. I would be 1/10th of the developer if people hadn't pushed me really hard on StackOverflow. It was often very upsetting. It's certainly a dance.
I think dev could use a little bit of a "this isn't good enough" mentality. How will anyone become better writers with no critique? I'm wondering if that's what codenewbie seeks to do and split the dev community up into 'beginner' and 'advanced?
I'd still like to see an example question where people were treating you badly. That would help people understand and hopefully learn from it.
I'd still like to see an example question where people were treating you badly. That would help people understand and hopefully learn from it.
(1) I don't make a habit of storing up toxic content, (2) most of the toxic behavior was aimed at others, not me, as I already said, and (3) the burden of proof of toxic behavior is not on the victim when it is this widespread.
I would be 1/10th of the developer if people hadn't pushed me really hard on StackOverflow. It was often very upsetting. It's certainly a dance.
And by the way, I understand all about being pushed to be a better developer. The #python Freenode IRC channel did that for me. But they were polite and constructive except for the odd incident (which was always resolved appropriately), whereas StackOverflow tends not to be, especially when revenge-fueled downvotes are preserved.
Speaking as a mentor and community manager, good constructive "pushing" should not be upsetting as a rule, and it should never make you feel stupid for showing up. Getting downvoted into oblivion does tear people down.
What's further, the community has always roundly rejected all proposals to require some (anonymous, even) feedback option to be select to accompany the downvote. The justification? "I should be allowed to vote however I want, whyever I want, without accountability." I dare you to look up the conversations on Meta about downvoting. It's a cesspool of toxic attitudes.
A downvote is never constructive. A comment can be. It's the difference between saying "you should do X differently" (what I always got in #python) and saying "you/your content sucks" (what a downvote says).
I think dev could use a little bit of a "this isn't good enough" mentality. How will anyone become better writers with no critique?
Perhaps. As a published author with over two decades professional experience in the writing field, I know the value of critique. But one also has to be careful. In professional writing circles, helpful critique always occurs in a context of trust. The anonymity of the internet makes it unsafe by default, and ripe ground for toxicity.
Just for fun, I was keeping some SO examples for the section of my class where we talk about navigating toxic areas. But there are many kinds of toxic too. Like this question: Make div go under in flex container. That's not going to help anyone... and as you can see, the OP - who was begging for attention to it, hasn't even checked the answers. All those people spent time to try and help - and that probably makes them feel bad. I'm used to it.
Here's a question that I think shows the positive side or SO: How to create a JavaScript array containing 1-n. To me, this shows many many different takes. It's debatable what is best - but the debate is what you can learn from.
I just wish there was better education to start with. They don't tell doctors:
"If you can learn it by yourself... then maybe we'll hire you - but don't let anyone know you're new - or we'll know your weak... so - just prove you're the best somehow / by reading books / and only "free" materials - and we'll let you operate on people..."
Reddit seems about 20x worse to me.
Just had to add a few more thoughts before I scamper off.
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We're a place where coders share, stay up-to-date and grow their careers.
People use StackOverflow the wrong way - and then they don't like the result.
It's not the platform's fault.
Most questions like "Help it doesn't work... " - are better asked to a friend.
Then - once you know how to formulate a question - you can ask in the right place. For example, need help with Cascading Style Sheets? Then ask in the Discord. Need help with an NPM package or git repo? Ask in the github. There are many places to ask questions - but each place has its own style.
StackOverflow's system works perfectly for what it is for. Are there jerks there? Yes. But they are everywhere. I've spent thousands of hours helping people on there - and it made me a much better developer.
If you use the wrong tool - and it doesn't get the job done - it's not the tool's fault. It's not just a free helpline. It's a way to distill commonly asked questions into a set of best answers.
People want to have their problems solved - but often they don't want to actually learn it. I have clearly explained and written out CodePens and basically given hours of tutoring and mentorship out to thousands of people - and maybe 1% of them actually learn from it. Sometimes I'll spend an hour - and then when the person gets the answer they are embarrassed and so they just delete the question - and now no one will benefit.
Trust me - I'm not in it for the points. I answer the bad questions just to help people learn how to break apart problems and ask good questions - but they often get closed - or no one upvotes them - because they aren't really going to be useful to someone else because they are too specific or aren't real questions - and more like "I don't know JavaScript - why doesn't it work" or really 7 questions in one.
You'll have to provide some examples / and I'm pretty sure they'll prove the point.
I'm glad you're in the happy minority of SO users that have had a predominantly positive experience. (Most of that is because you're on the Javascript tags, which has been observed to be considerably less representative of the behavioral toxic waste dump the rest of the site is.) I've been on StackOverflow for years, served as a volunteer reviewer for some time, and have decent reputation...but I quit for all the reasons described in the post, mainly observing those realities in terms of other users.
If a platform encourages particular behavior, and does not properly address it, it is absolutely the platform's fault. DEV isn't toxic because DEV does not allow itself to become toxic. To shrug it off and say, "aw, that's just a few bad actors" is how we've tolerated toxicity for decades in this industry.
I would argue that while SO and Dev both have the same "generate content + get eyes + sell ads" business plan, but that they have very different goals for what content is created.
I understand how you feel. I just wanted to offer another viewpoint. I would be 1/10th of the developer if people hadn't pushed me really hard on StackOverflow. It was often very upsetting. It's certainly a dance.
I think dev could use a little bit of a "this isn't good enough" mentality. How will anyone become better writers with no critique? I'm wondering if that's what codenewbie seeks to do and split the dev community up into 'beginner' and 'advanced?
I'd still like to see an example question where people were treating you badly. That would help people understand and hopefully learn from it.
(1) I don't make a habit of storing up toxic content, (2) most of the toxic behavior was aimed at others, not me, as I already said, and (3) the burden of proof of toxic behavior is not on the victim when it is this widespread.
And by the way, I understand all about being pushed to be a better developer. The
#pythonFreenode IRC channel did that for me. But they were polite and constructive except for the odd incident (which was always resolved appropriately), whereas StackOverflow tends not to be, especially when revenge-fueled downvotes are preserved.Speaking as a mentor and community manager, good constructive "pushing" should not be upsetting as a rule, and it should never make you feel stupid for showing up. Getting downvoted into oblivion does tear people down.
What's further, the community has always roundly rejected all proposals to require some (anonymous, even) feedback option to be select to accompany the downvote. The justification? "I should be allowed to vote however I want, whyever I want, without accountability." I dare you to look up the conversations on Meta about downvoting. It's a cesspool of toxic attitudes.
A downvote is never constructive. A comment can be. It's the difference between saying "you should do X differently" (what I always got in
#python) and saying "you/your content sucks" (what a downvote says).Perhaps. As a published author with over two decades professional experience in the writing field, I know the value of critique. But one also has to be careful. In professional writing circles, helpful critique always occurs in a context of trust. The anonymity of the internet makes it unsafe by default, and ripe ground for toxicity.
I think you've nailed it. StackOverflow isn't a good place for you.
I wouldn't call it a healthy place for anyone overall. Tolerating toxicity gets under one's skin after a while.
Disproven. There exists at least one user for whom SO is a healthy place.
Well, toxic behavior is usually considered safe by people who commit it, so, yeah, fair point.
So I'm saying I don't experience almost any toxicity on stack-overflow, and your answer is that I just don't know toxicity when I see it?
and also - don't forget there are many many stack exchanges: codereview.stackexchange.com - and not just for code stuff.
Just for fun, I was keeping some SO examples for the section of my class where we talk about navigating toxic areas. But there are many kinds of toxic too. Like this question: Make div go under in flex container. That's not going to help anyone... and as you can see, the OP - who was begging for attention to it, hasn't even checked the answers. All those people spent time to try and help - and that probably makes them feel bad. I'm used to it.
Here's a question that I think shows the positive side or SO: How to create a JavaScript array containing 1-n. To me, this shows many many different takes. It's debatable what is best - but the debate is what you can learn from.
I just wish there was better education to start with. They don't tell doctors:
Reddit seems about 20x worse to me.
Just had to add a few more thoughts before I scamper off.