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Discussion on: The Weird History of JavaScript

sleeplessbyte profile image
Derk-Jan Karrenbeld • Edited on


I'm sorry if I've come across as overly assertive in this conversation. I feel passionately about the fact that many of the tools/surveys/etc that people use are not representative of the wider non-white-western world and it's frustrating to me when things like StackOverflow survey are used as if they are facts.

I should not have responded to the "fact" with my 100% certainty that is a "fact in disguise", when I can't back up that what I try to communicate with a simple single resource.

Instead, I think it's worth asking whether "Most used" on "StackOverflow" equals to most-used on a global scale and of different technologies. When reading the GitHub octoverse results, I ask myself, does this provide a good representation of global usage? Are all backgrounds covered? Do the survey demographics match that of the programming world?

I've left the rest of this comment intact -- but please read it with the above in mind.


How does one’s mother language and country affect their programming language of choice? Or rather, prevent or hinder the adoption of JavaScript?

It affects where you look for help and thus which surveys you might fill in or which statistics you contribute to. It also means that educational material might not be available in your native language.

Out of curiosity, what years are we talking about?

2008-2012; I still communicate with the people I worked with then, but try to avoid Enterprise for this part of my life 😅😅

Anyway, I won’t argue with your impression that JavaScript isn’t the most used language, but it’s just that: your impression. As far as facts check out, GitHub and StackOverflow are way more representative of the industry than your single case.

Please look exactly at what I said. All I said was that the surveys as given by the OP are not representative and can not be used to make a blanket statement that JavaScript is the most popular/used/xxx language. It is not a complete picture. I supported that statement, that the surveys are not representative, by giving anecdotal data. I then followed it up by saying that I am 100% certain the majority of software is not written in JavaScript. That is not an impression, but based on experience, indices, job offers.

Again, the facts as given are highly skewed and not representative. The TIOBE index among many is a far better indicator. It has to be said that this doesn't look at most lines written or perceived best language.

Don't forget that whilst you'll be given so many job offers for JS based jobs on GitHub and via StackOverlow, that is because you're in a bubble. I get weekly email digest from my industry in The Netherlands, Greater London and Paris, which are all bubbles, and the majority of offers is for .NET, Java and PHP with JS/TS coming in as a closed fourth. All data points to support the fact that these are all bubbles. If you look at my resume, it actually makes sense to hire me for JS jobs, yet those are not the majority of offers.

For example, you know how many microcontrollers there are in the world? They're in your fridge, your car, your coffee machine, your microwave, to name a few, and apart from a few hobbiest writing for them in different languages, they are 100% written in C. Not 50%, but 100%.

According to Hackerrank in 2016 It's Python, Java, C, C# and Ruby which dominate Fintech, among other industries, which exactly matches the e-mails I get for these industries in 2019. Again, not saying this means that they are more popular, but means that once you are outside of the GH/SO bubble, there is a different picture painted.

… which can version front-end and Node projects as well.

That's not the point. It's a likely explanation why the GitHub stats don't have those projects.

What would you say about npm, then? Being as large as the next 5 largest module registries combined, and 3.5x larger than Maven Central?

OSS and the use of packages and modules is, by my experience, far greater and better in the JS/TS ecosystem. Does that mean there is more JS written in quantity? No. Does that mean there is more JS maintained in quantity? No. Does that mean that people publish more JS packages, especially as OSS? Most certainly.

These statistics don't compare fire-and-forget packages, nor the fact that OSS feeds OSS, which is probably bigger in JS/TS land. I can find far fewer packages in OSS when devving in C# for example. This doesn't say anything about its popularity, but only about the OSS bubble of that language.

Is that your explanation of JavaScript’s allegedly apparent popularity? That doesn’t seem to have a solid leg to stand on, IMO.

No, it's one of the explanations that people like the OP think that the SO and GH surveys are representative for the programming world.

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maxart2501 profile image
Massimo Artizzu

I think there's an underlying misunderstanding in all this discussion. I don't think anyone ever thought GH or SO were perfect mirrors of the language usage of the industry. That would be gullible. But, you know, they're the best we have.
Knowing that nothing will even be a perfect statistic representation, should we flat out stop saying anything about it?

On GitHub, JavaScript is the most used language by a long shot.
On Stack Overflow, it's the most discussed, by a long shot.
Among package registries, npm is the largest. By a long shot.

I won't say that three clues make a proof, of course. But we're not talking about "JavaScript is 15% ahead of LanguageX", but rather an order of magnitude. I think it's pretty reasonable to draw conclusions, although without exact numbers.

Stack Overflow's co-founder Jeff Atwood, who is not a JavaScript developer (rather a .NET dev) stated his famous law in 2007: "Any application that can be written in JavaScript, will eventually be written in JavaScript." And in 2007 we didn't even have a lot of things that made JavaScript so popular: Chrome, Node.js, Angular, React, ...

Personally, I find Stack Overflow's usage quite interesting because - assuming no language/environment is significantly more difficult than another - it's about the struggles of everyday's users, and their direct experiences.

On the other hand, I feel you're playing as the devil's advocate here. Don't mistake me, it's often an important role, as it can lead to find trivial oversights. And yet, even with all your considerations, I fail to see how those aspects can mean an effective bias.

For example, the spoken language. Granted that most of the surveys and Q&A sites are in English, so developers who don't speak English (well) are less likely to use them, it still doesn't explain why this should affect the numbers. Does the English-speaking community lean towards JavaScript? If yes, how? And how much?

What about SVN and TS? Is there a reason to believe that private repositories contain, proportionally, less JavaScript than GitHub (at least the part that's public)?

Your reference to Hackerrank is indeed interesting, but: a) 2016 is three years ago, which could be considered a long time in IT, and b) interviews are influenced by the market's offer.

The application field, on the contrary, is definitely a factor. Of course the gaming industry will push for low-level, high performing languages such as C; and the scientific community is shifting towards Python thanks to its well-crafted libraries. I don't think anyone will even contest these points, as there are clear reasons.
But we're looking at the overall picture here.

Sorry for the lengthy post - but I want to let you know that, in the end, you actually made think and ponder 🖖

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sleeplessbyte profile image
Derk-Jan Karrenbeld

Given your response, yes I would never use either of those three statistics or the combination to make a blanket statement that X is the most popular because, as you state, we can't. I think it's misleading and uninformed.

We can say plenty using those three stats without making assumptions and call them as if they're facts :).

I can go into the specific questions you ask later, when I have the capability to give you an articulated response, but for now I'd would say: I'm glad I made you think about it, yes I am partially playing the devil's advocate because I wánt people to think about it and yes: I think there is far less JS comparatively on non-github svns, which ties in with less open source, less packaging and more enterprise and closed source software.

Do I think JS will keep growing? DEFINITELY! Will I use SO and GH as the source to determine that it's the most popular language? Personally I will never for the reasons I've mentioned so far, until I can be more certain that they are a good reflection of the programming world as a whole.

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sleeplessbyte profile image
Derk-Jan Karrenbeld

Also: thank you so much for taking the time and writing it like you did. ❤❤❤