I've been coding for over 20 years now! (WOAH, do I feel old)
I've touched just about every resource imaginable under the Sun (too bad they were bought out by Oracle)
This is quite the angry rant, especially considering desktop environments are one of the hottest topics among FreeBSD developers right now, including literally just yesterday talking about what it would take to build a graphical installer.
The FreeBSD forums do not encompass the entirety of the community. Additionally, it looks like that poll was about creating a dedicated distribution, which admittedly is something the majority of FreeBSD users are NOT fond of, but for reasons entirely different than you describe. Linux has become a very fractured set of incompatible ecosystems, whereas FreeBSD is doing what they can to avoid this issue. So instead of creating a distro/fork of FreeBSD, discussion is instead around how to best create a single install media that encompasses both desktop and server users together.
As far as drivers go, before Linux hit the big time in the server world, the story was exactly the same there, too (and still is to a certain extent with various drivers). That's not a core team issue on either kernel, that is a hardware vendor issue. Developers cant magically make and support drivers for hardware they have know documentation or knowledge of, or having debug versions of that hardware at their disposal. That is not an easy problem to solve from outside the vendors themselves making drivers.
He/Him/His. Engineering manager by day, home sysadmin by night. Thoughts here are mine only & do not represent those of my employer or any group of which I am a member.
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desktop environments are one of the hottest topics among FreeBSD developers right now, including literally just yesterday talking about what it would take to build a graphical installer.
Link?
The FreeBSD forums do not encompass the entirety of the community.
I would think it's a pretty good representative sample. Also, the general attitudes I've observed on the forum are the same on r/freebsd, r/bsd, and BSD Telegram groups.
was about creating a dedicated distribution, which admittedly is something the majority of FreeBSD users are NOT fond of
It seems to be the only way to deliver a DE that isn't broken by major version updates. Not to mention it's also the only way of getting a DE out of the box.
Linux has become a very fractured set of incompatible ecosystems
Only if you view Linux through a Unix lens. On Linux, the compatibility layer is the Linux kernel itself.
FreeBSD is doing what they can to avoid this issue
Which is a losing battle for an open source project. BSD already fractured into OpenBSD, NetBSD, and DragonflyBSD, in addition to FreeBSD itself. Trying to prevent an open source project from being forked or splintering makes as much sense as trying to fight the wind. IMO the only thing FreeBSD's devs have ensured by doing this is that Linux sees the vast majority of 3rd party developer attention.
discussion is instead around how to best create a single install media that encompasses both desktop and server users together.
So integrate the DE Into the distro? That's what the people asking about FreeBSD desktop distros want. The reason they're asking about it is the FreeBSD project itself is moving far too slowly on this.
Also, Debian is a fantastic example of DE-agnostic, server-friendly distro. FreeBSD should just copy what they do.
That is not an easy problem to solve from outside the vendors themselves making drivers.
Yet OpenIndiana, which has an even older codebase, worse documentation, and less manpower, manages to do it just fine. My issue is not necessarily that drivers aren't yet up to snuff, but that FreeBSD greenlit 13.0 for RELEASEin full knowledge of that being the case. No one would have been hurt by just waiting for all the GPU driver ducks to fall into a row, and doing so would have been in keeping with FreeBSD's "slow and steady" philosophy anyway.
The face that 13.0 was released with things being the way they are tells me the core dev team doesn't truly care about the workstation use case, despite whatever else they claim. Actions speak louder than words.
This is quite the angry rant, especially considering desktop environments are one of the hottest topics among FreeBSD developers right now, including literally just yesterday talking about what it would take to build a graphical installer.
The FreeBSD forums do not encompass the entirety of the community. Additionally, it looks like that poll was about creating a dedicated distribution, which admittedly is something the majority of FreeBSD users are NOT fond of, but for reasons entirely different than you describe. Linux has become a very fractured set of incompatible ecosystems, whereas FreeBSD is doing what they can to avoid this issue. So instead of creating a distro/fork of FreeBSD, discussion is instead around how to best create a single install media that encompasses both desktop and server users together.
As far as drivers go, before Linux hit the big time in the server world, the story was exactly the same there, too (and still is to a certain extent with various drivers). That's not a core team issue on either kernel, that is a hardware vendor issue. Developers cant magically make and support drivers for hardware they have know documentation or knowledge of, or having debug versions of that hardware at their disposal. That is not an easy problem to solve from outside the vendors themselves making drivers.
Link?
I would think it's a pretty good representative sample. Also, the general attitudes I've observed on the forum are the same on r/freebsd, r/bsd, and BSD Telegram groups.
It seems to be the only way to deliver a DE that isn't broken by major version updates. Not to mention it's also the only way of getting a DE out of the box.
Only if you view Linux through a Unix lens. On Linux, the compatibility layer is the Linux kernel itself.
Which is a losing battle for an open source project. BSD already fractured into OpenBSD, NetBSD, and DragonflyBSD, in addition to FreeBSD itself. Trying to prevent an open source project from being forked or splintering makes as much sense as trying to fight the wind. IMO the only thing FreeBSD's devs have ensured by doing this is that Linux sees the vast majority of 3rd party developer attention.
So integrate the DE Into the distro? That's what the people asking about FreeBSD desktop distros want. The reason they're asking about it is the FreeBSD project itself is moving far too slowly on this.
Also, Debian is a fantastic example of DE-agnostic, server-friendly distro. FreeBSD should just copy what they do.
Yet OpenIndiana, which has an even older codebase, worse documentation, and less manpower, manages to do it just fine. My issue is not necessarily that drivers aren't yet up to snuff, but that FreeBSD greenlit 13.0 for
RELEASEin full knowledge of that being the case. No one would have been hurt by just waiting for all the GPU driver ducks to fall into a row, and doing so would have been in keeping with FreeBSD's "slow and steady" philosophy anyway.The face that 13.0 was released with things being the way they are tells me the core dev team doesn't truly care about the workstation use case, despite whatever else they claim. Actions speak louder than words.
Isn't it about 20 years too late for FreeBSD developers to start thinking about desktops?