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Discussion on: If you don't hire juniors, you don't deserve seniors

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defiance profile image
Defiance Black

Hm.

That highlighted something I've only seen a little -- I didn't know it was so widespread, since I'm not in the industry. I'm old enough to know that I want little-to-no part of it, but also inexperienced enough that I would barely apply "junior developer" to my name.

While I was reading, I thought, could it be that this trend is a proxy-block against diversity quotas? Though you mentioned big companies in the public eye that probably should/do have a diversity quota, it just seems like experience is the perfect negative to your average "problem glasses" wearing, super passionate about everything, everyone is so talented and amazing, intern for hire. Junior developers may not be the specific target at all.

Way off?

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yemsalat profile image
Konstantin

I thought, could it be that this trend is a proxy-block against diversity quotas?
I think perhaps only unintentionally it could be. Most companies actually dont have those quotas.
I think it mainly comes from companies just wanting to get top talent.

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defiance profile image
Defiance Black

I think perhaps only unintentionally it could be.

Unintentionally, sure.

My aim with that probe was to point at the plausible deniability it gives a group of people. Hiring filters out on all kinds of categories and always has. If young people are all up in identity politics (the source of all this bs), then it follows that they, making up the majority of juniors (grads, soon to be or recently) are also excluded by something innocuous.

Two birds, one stone.

I think it mainly comes from companies just wanting to get top talent.

I think, when top talent clashes with company culture, top talent will lose. Otherwise, top talent would be running all the companies, and I think that's a stretch.

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acloudmasters profile image
Shakim Harris

Yes, perfect sense. Minorities can't always get the 5 years of experience to become senior, when all the jobs want senior devs.

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yemsalat profile image
Konstantin

No logic, doesn't it make it harder for ALL juniors, not just the minorities? Or are you implying that there are more juniors among minorities?

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defiance profile image
Defiance Black

No logic, doesn't it make it harder for ALL juniors, not just the minorities?

Yes, logic. It's where the recent praise for junior developers has stemmed from. If all juniors didn't have it so bad, this wouldn't be/have been a topic of discussion among devs of all ethnicities.

A way to maintain the status-quo is generally to not hire people unless they really give you a reason to hire them (experience greater than 5 years is probably included).

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yemsalat profile image
Konstantin

I don't think we are disagreeing. My point - it has nothing to do with minorities.
From my experience of working in IT in Australia (white majority country) most developers, including in junior and leading positions were either from India or Asia.
(I know that India technically is Asia, but you know what I mean)

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defiance profile image
Defiance Black

I wasn't thinking minorities in particular, but such a proxy-block does prevent the status-quo from changing too much/too soon in any one direction.

Seasoned programmers will still come in all shades, since "5 years experience" can still be done at home... that's how most of the early guys did it. The key is, rather than look for a job, they used what they learned to create their own businesses (mostly porn back then, but a lot of e-commerce in general).