Yes, Daily standup meetings, also know as Daily Scrum, are useless, if done in the following way.
Everyone stares at the Trello, Asana or JIRA boa...
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It's interesting to read diverse views on stand up meetings here. For my part (and it's easy to imagine it's a naive or at least not vogue part), I always viewed the main points and benefits of routine stand up meetings were:
But of course, any one thing (routine stand up meetings in this instance) is many things to many people. It's interesting to read here, the diverse takes and experiences.
I agree that any one thing is many things to many people but have trouble seeing how point #4 is not universally offensive.
Enforcing accountability that way would be rejected by almost any other profession - lawyers, doctors, professors, managers, etc. Is there some reason that developers are not deserving of the same respect?
I can't see how it's offensive. Most any profession can and does similar indeed in my experience. If there's a team conducting surgery, I don't doubt for a minute they have a collective and very probably stand up debrief just before it starts, at intervals during if it's long and after it's done (I could of course be wrong, my lack of doubt is not proof of anything - hospitals are diverse after all). But it comes into its own in soft endeavours ...
What is a soft endeavour? Ironically software is one. Research is too (I worked in research a lot), I classify the endeavour as "soft" hear to indicate that performance is impossible to measure. It simply does not relate linearly to output. Research is classic in that space, and software development as well. They aren't like assembly lines at Ford, nor construction sites for skyscrapers, they are not paper pushing at a bank or in the public service even (though there are jobs in the public services similar, legal stuff, law, and legislation touches on similar "softness").
Because they are soft, employee motivation and drive or lack of it can create significant shifts in net output that micromanaging cannot. Micromanagement is about scrutinising every task and whether it's late or on time and it very very useful in many context and can even reap significant rewards in software (I successfully managed software projects for some years using Steve McConnell's three-point estimation methods). But there remains a rather strong soft component because I can legitimately spend one day or three on a given job and easily convince most anyone who isn't scrutinizing every keystroke that that's just how long it took. It's not insulting to anyone to observer the reality of that property of software development. It didn't insult us to recognize it in research either (I was working in a research facility in the steel industry at the time). In the latter (research) it has long been conventional to deliver verbal reports to the entire team at intervals. Generally it was a more formal 5 minute talk cycle over longer periods, say quarterly.
In software when I participated and organised routine meetings I admit I can't help but notice that for a good many staff (it's not universal, nothing is) the need to share openly and the routine of doing, and in the case of stand ups to added requirement to focus on brevity, poignance, the key issues, was well received, helped to motivate and inspire... a good many people don't perform as well left to their own devices, but actually flower in the light of recognition and caring at this level across a team. Yes, others again flower better under more one on one recognition with a supervisor too. We are diverse, nothing decks everyone's needs all the time - made famous by Lincoln as "You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time”.
In any case it's a long way from universally insulting. But I can easily accept that some would and do find it that way yes. But they can generally be talked through it ;-). Remember the meeting is not about "enforcing" anything, it's about giving everyone a hearing and lending everyone an ear and being public, being open with your progress that is all. And many people do,like it or not, feel motivated by, or inspired by, the need to live into their public image in that way. It works well.
The converse, that I have seen, is an office full of communication challenged geeks (all in business suits no less in some cases) sitting behind screens at keyboards clack clacking a way, in a dead quite open plan office, and you walk in and what say "Morning all!" and maybe start by doing that in your first weeks before you realise half these people are on the spectrum ;-) and their grunted replies are not encouraging so you falter ... I'll take a morning standup meeting any day over that.
Its a mandatory meeting ie enforced and requiring it for accountability reasons is clearly offensive. Also "communication challenged geeks" is obviously very offensive - its possible you have no ability to empathize.
Edit - just noticed the half on the spectrum part - very nice.
On "communication challenged geeks" is obviously very offensive:
I have worked in IT for decades and never found one offended at the reflexive observation than many of us have communication challenges and equally many are very happy with the labels geek or nerd even them having been long ago made objects of pride by the tech boom, Gates, Jobs, Wozniak, Torvalds and more ... few of us in my experience find such reflections offensive and I'm deeply surprised to find one on dev.to I have to admit. That said, clearly the intent is in no way to offend, simply the assessment as to what is offensive differs and I am long enough in the tooth and familiar enough with an age in my youth where my own physical and social traits attracted open derision and ridicule in the form of tropes like the nerd and the 98lb weakling that were stock pop culture ... so I'm not in the least bit insensitive to your feedback, just a little surprised to find it here on dev.to a forum of IT developers.
On mandatory meeting ie enforced and requiring it for accountability reasons is clearly offensive:
Two issues with that observation:
No-one suggested that the only or even prime motivator, and the only benefit of regular meetings is related to accountability and the motivation and inspiration that may provide, only that this is one of the features of regular team meetings.
Even if it was, I can in no way see that as clearly offensive. I do detect a little projection of your social norms onto the subject matter, and it's not surprising of course that a global forum brings together folk with disparate social norms. I've worked across a number of industries in all manner of contexts and a good chunk of it in IT but have yet to come across any context in which regular meetings and an expectation to attend them for a quick sharing was viewed by anyone as offensive. Bothersome yes, offensive, never. That said, simply because I don't recall it doesn't mean it didn't happen, there are the issues indeed that you allude to, of my noticing to begin with and subsequently remembering (as I cast my mind back to say imposed regular meetings on us in the late '80s and my reaction then and those of my peers).
I take your feedback gladly David, but I do think you're reading a lot more into what was shared than I imagined possible and have a penchant for assuming things clear that are far from clear .... Cultures, and workplace cultures are extremely diverse not least on global fora like this and it is so easy to assume that what seems clear to me here is generally clear ... but that has name: projection.
You can read Marcus Geduld's response to your accusation at quora.com/Why-are-most-developers-...
Developers are out there every day writing blogs and books, they are not bad at communication, programming is itself a form of communication.
But that's the beauty of this "standup" for accountability isn't it - get people in a room together and then you can endlessly berate them for lack of "soft skills" if anything goes wrong on the project.
Sounds like you just have a bad agile practitioner facilitating your standups.
Here's what I do:
This assumes you trust your teams to progress through their work and have other measures in place (colocation, strong practices in chat apps) to foster collaboration.
You're blaming the wrong thing
Hi, thanks for your comment!
Honestly though, I don't quite get what/who you are disagreeing with.. 😅
I think everyone can relate with the points you shared, but as the example standup I shared at the beginning of the post, they are the result of poor communication and meeting management and deeper misunderstanding of the purpose of the meeting, rather than a flaw of the tool - the standup meeting - itself.
I - as tech lead - would perfectly fine with the approach you mention, i also mentioned i could just rely on Jira Board status.
Still team is not made only of tech people and blockers and idea of moving forward must surface in other forms too.
It's always a matter of balance. and iteratively reflect on the tools we use, how we use them and why.
alright! 😅
You are so wrong... so damn wrong about stands being useless. Try running your own company and you will soon figure out why standup meetings exist. That and a lot of other stuff.
You are right about one thing - the standup purpose IS to point out blockers, give a shout out about problems and request for help and directions. Not to share valuable information - technical meetings are for this, not stands. Stand should be just to keep track on the team pulse.
Also think about them from a different perspective - some people keep slacking until the very last moment unless they know someone will check what they do. If they know, that they will have to lie in front of you they may actually do something instead of nothing, right?
Cheers.
if you read the article, not event in its entirety, but just at the second line.. :wink you clearly see that the title is slighly clickbaity. I find them useless because most of the time they miss the point. they should be done right, and they are great.
we might have different opinion about what valuable information is, but not about the fact standups are valuable indeed!
When I see stand ups, there is usually a format that all stand ups follow:
In my mind, the first one is actually bad. It forces you into a performance of why you are valuable and deserve to be on a team. It's totally not needed. What are you are doing today, and do you need help is more than enough.
in a perfect world, we would not need any of the 3 points.