A software engineer that specializes in serverless microservices. I love creating helpful content about programming and reverse-engineering.
I am employed at Google; all opinions are my own.
Yea, just like you can implement a no sql database with json files, we have tools built for various use-cases. How do you know config servers are enormous, have you used or checked one out? How is tons of code a useful measurement in this conversation again?
All these features you are saying that are trivial to mention can also grow into these "enormous" config servers you keep mentioning. OOOR you can use an already established and battle-tested implementation to avoid introducing the very bugs you are talking about.
And not to be rude, but how much experience do you have?
I have checked the "config server" you mentioned in the post,, it has hundreds of dependencies and more than 600k lines of code, which is really ENORMOUS considering the fact that only several hundreds of lines of code are needed to realize the features you mentioned most in the post.
log4j was established and battle-tested, struts2 was established and battle-tested, and when there are orders of magnitude of difference in the amount of code involved, then it's a useful measurement. When it comes to managing important sensitive data like passwords in devops, I'd always trust 600 lines of code written by myself with a handful dependencies than 600k lines of code written by other people with 500 dependencies, when they basically serve the same goals for my particular needs.
And nope a simple bespoke config management solution is next to impossible to grow into those enormous config servers, for example if you code a simple server with koa and several self-made middlewares for your particular needs, it will never grow anywhere near the size of Spring or Rails. From what your post suggests, using a "config server" with 600k lines of code and 500 dependencies just to address pain points like version control, config sharing, access control, data encryption and secret rotation kind of stuff, that sounds like you wanting to deploy an entire Spring Cloud infrastructure just to serve a simple website. Or like wanting to use a NoSQL database when a plain JSON file is more than sufficient to store your data.
And like I said, the solutions to those pain points mentioned in your post is really not about config servers vs. dotenv files, but more about centralized remote databases vs. local config files.
I'll just say I have lead teams of devops with 5 to 10 years of experience, using many kinds of configuration management solutions across various projects of various sizes, from simple bespoke solutions based on config files and/or centralized databases, to distributed systems based on things like zookeeper, and tools for k8s, etc. From what I can see, those "config servers" mentioned in your post are simply WAY overkill as replacements for some config files to just address those handful pain points you mentioned in the post.
A software engineer that specializes in serverless microservices. I love creating helpful content about programming and reverse-engineering.
I am employed at Google; all opinions are my own.
Again. WHY DO YOU KEEP BRINGING UP LINES OF CODE AS A METRIC OF USEFULNESS??
About half of HashiCorp Vault's code is unit, system, and integration tests.
They thoroughly test the front-end and the back-end. And to take it a step forward they have end-to-end tests and acceptance tests.
Tests written to avoid these "vulnerbilities" that you keep preaching have multiple lines of code create.
Ok then you can write a config server yourself if you are scared of vulernerbilities. While you are at it MySQL has a vulnerbility back in May so you might want to write your own database engine while your at it.
Also, Chrome just recently had a vulnerbility too. Don't forget to build a while web browser as well. Actually, Dev.to has a bug page, yikes you might wanna re-write this website too.
I mentioned in the article that config servers are usually accessed form VPCs so even if one of those "hundreds of dependencies" has a bug, the config server is protected from the internet.
Also I find what your saying kinda funny.
If a project uses tons of dependencies, then the project is bad. Instead, if they write the features by hand which increases the lines of code, that also makes the project bad.
You really need to read what others' saying before replying completely irrelevant things. If I just need to store 1k of data, I'll not use MySQL, I'll just use a JSON file. If I just want to download a file, I'll not use Chrome, I'll just use curl or wget. You must have some serious problems with your eyes IF you can't properly read what others write.
I clearly said those handful of pain points you mentioned in your post does NOT require those enormous "config servers" to address. Those are some simple goals achievable with some very simple config management solutions based on config files, or if you want, with centralized databases, which may take even less time and easier to implement than deploying and adapting to one of those "config servers" mentioned in your post. If you want to call such simple config management solutions "config servers" too, fine. I guess you can call both koa and Spring as "web frameworks", but their differences are huge.
Like I said, using one of those enormous "config servers" to address those pain points mentioned in your post is like deploying an entire Spring Cloud infrastructure to just serve a simple website with features that can be done by using just koa and a handful simple self-made middlewares. Yes you can try deploy a complete Spring Cloud stack to just serve a simple website, but it will take more time, use more resources, and exposed to more potential vulnerabilities UNNECESSARILY, so noone would recommend that.
When you can address all your pain points regarding dotenv files with some simple bespoke solution of several hundreds lines of code, deploying and adapting to an enormous "config server" mentioned in your post to achieve the same goals is really not something to recommend.
Next time try really read and understand what others have said first.
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You seem to really have some serious problems with your eyes, or your English comprehension skills. What I said is that achieving the same goals with less code is good, and if by orders of magnitude less amount of code, then that's really really good. More dependencies usually means more code in total to achieve your goals.
And about the lines of code as a useful measurement, yes they are when the differences are ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE kind of huge. A simple "Hello World" program practically has zero bug (of course it has next to nil functionality too), 600k lines of code may not differ from 500k lines of code much in terms of complexity and potential bugginess, but if THE SAME GOALS can be achieved by 600 lines of code instead of 600k lines of code, that's some big difference.
A software engineer that specializes in serverless microservices. I love creating helpful content about programming and reverse-engineering.
I am employed at Google; all opinions are my own.
I don't think we are going to get anywhere, we are clearly at a disconnect and throwing insults isn't going to solve much. Let's just agree to meet in the middle on this.
no insults, just curious, is English your first language? I kinda understand what you are trying to say with "agree to meet in the middle" here, but that sounds really a little odd here, just saying.
A software engineer that specializes in serverless microservices. I love creating helpful content about programming and reverse-engineering.
I am employed at Google; all opinions are my own.
Yes english is my first langauge. What i mean by meet in the middle, I'm saying we both respectfully acknowledge the other person side and agree to disagree.
A software engineer that specializes in serverless microservices. I love creating helpful content about programming and reverse-engineering.
I am employed at Google; all opinions are my own.
Yea, just like you can implement a no sql database with json files, we have tools built for various use-cases. How do you know config servers are enormous, have you used or checked one out? How is tons of code a useful measurement in this conversation again?
All these features you are saying that are trivial to mention can also grow into these "enormous" config servers you keep mentioning. OOOR you can use an already established and battle-tested implementation to avoid introducing the very bugs you are talking about.
And not to be rude, but how much experience do you have?
I have checked the "config server" you mentioned in the post,, it has hundreds of dependencies and more than 600k lines of code, which is really ENORMOUS considering the fact that only several hundreds of lines of code are needed to realize the features you mentioned most in the post.
log4j was established and battle-tested, struts2 was established and battle-tested, and when there are orders of magnitude of difference in the amount of code involved, then it's a useful measurement. When it comes to managing important sensitive data like passwords in devops, I'd always trust 600 lines of code written by myself with a handful dependencies than 600k lines of code written by other people with 500 dependencies, when they basically serve the same goals for my particular needs.
And nope a simple bespoke config management solution is next to impossible to grow into those enormous config servers, for example if you code a simple server with koa and several self-made middlewares for your particular needs, it will never grow anywhere near the size of Spring or Rails. From what your post suggests, using a "config server" with 600k lines of code and 500 dependencies just to address pain points like version control, config sharing, access control, data encryption and secret rotation kind of stuff, that sounds like you wanting to deploy an entire Spring Cloud infrastructure just to serve a simple website. Or like wanting to use a NoSQL database when a plain JSON file is more than sufficient to store your data.
And like I said, the solutions to those pain points mentioned in your post is really not about config servers vs. dotenv files, but more about centralized remote databases vs. local config files.
I'll just say I have lead teams of devops with 5 to 10 years of experience, using many kinds of configuration management solutions across various projects of various sizes, from simple bespoke solutions based on config files and/or centralized databases, to distributed systems based on things like zookeeper, and tools for k8s, etc. From what I can see, those "config servers" mentioned in your post are simply WAY overkill as replacements for some config files to just address those handful pain points you mentioned in the post.
Again. WHY DO YOU KEEP BRINGING UP LINES OF CODE AS A METRIC OF USEFULNESS??
About half of HashiCorp Vault's code is unit, system, and integration tests.
They thoroughly test the front-end and the back-end. And to take it a step forward they have end-to-end tests and acceptance tests.
Tests written to avoid these "vulnerbilities" that you keep preaching have multiple lines of code create.
Ok then you can write a config server yourself if you are scared of vulernerbilities. While you are at it MySQL has a vulnerbility back in May so you might want to write your own database engine while your at it.
Also, Chrome just recently had a vulnerbility too. Don't forget to build a while web browser as well. Actually, Dev.to has a bug page, yikes you might wanna re-write this website too.
I mentioned in the article that config servers are usually accessed form VPCs so even if one of those "hundreds of dependencies" has a bug, the config server is protected from the internet.
Also I find what your saying kinda funny.
If a project uses tons of dependencies, then the project is bad. Instead, if they write the features by hand which increases the lines of code, that also makes the project bad.
You really need to read what others' saying before replying completely irrelevant things. If I just need to store 1k of data, I'll not use MySQL, I'll just use a JSON file. If I just want to download a file, I'll not use Chrome, I'll just use curl or wget. You must have some serious problems with your eyes IF you can't properly read what others write.
I clearly said those handful of pain points you mentioned in your post does NOT require those enormous "config servers" to address. Those are some simple goals achievable with some very simple config management solutions based on config files, or if you want, with centralized databases, which may take even less time and easier to implement than deploying and adapting to one of those "config servers" mentioned in your post. If you want to call such simple config management solutions "config servers" too, fine. I guess you can call both koa and Spring as "web frameworks", but their differences are huge.
Like I said, using one of those enormous "config servers" to address those pain points mentioned in your post is like deploying an entire Spring Cloud infrastructure to just serve a simple website with features that can be done by using just koa and a handful simple self-made middlewares. Yes you can try deploy a complete Spring Cloud stack to just serve a simple website, but it will take more time, use more resources, and exposed to more potential vulnerabilities UNNECESSARILY, so noone would recommend that.
When you can address all your pain points regarding dotenv files with some simple bespoke solution of several hundreds lines of code, deploying and adapting to an enormous "config server" mentioned in your post to achieve the same goals is really not something to recommend.
Next time try really read and understand what others have said first.
===
You seem to really have some serious problems with your eyes, or your English comprehension skills. What I said is that achieving the same goals with less code is good, and if by orders of magnitude less amount of code, then that's really really good. More dependencies usually means more code in total to achieve your goals.
And about the lines of code as a useful measurement, yes they are when the differences are ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE kind of huge. A simple "Hello World" program practically has zero bug (of course it has next to nil functionality too), 600k lines of code may not differ from 500k lines of code much in terms of complexity and potential bugginess, but if THE SAME GOALS can be achieved by 600 lines of code instead of 600k lines of code, that's some big difference.
I don't think we are going to get anywhere, we are clearly at a disconnect and throwing insults isn't going to solve much. Let's just agree to meet in the middle on this.
no insults, just curious, is English your first language? I kinda understand what you are trying to say with "agree to meet in the middle" here, but that sounds really a little odd here, just saying.
Yes english is my first langauge. What i mean by meet in the middle, I'm saying we both respectfully acknowledge the other person side and agree to disagree.
Yeah I know what it means, just don't see it usually used like this.
I don't want to keep pinging you so I'll make this the last message, but I'm curious, how do you normally see the phrase used?
usually when there's no compromise it's just agree to disagree.