You haven't said much about OS, the implicit choice here seems to be between OSX and Windows (although the latter isn't explicitly mentioned) ...
What I was wondering about - what's the best option for someone who prefers Linux - does it always mean you buy a laptop with Windows preinstalled, and then you wipe it (or you make it dual boot), or are there laptops on the market without an OS preinstalled?
(a quick Google search shows that yes, laptops without an OS are available, it's just they're more hard to find, and they probably aren't sold by "grade A" suppliers, they're a bit more obscure brands - and no idea about the quality ... Microsoft and Apple don't necessarily have a superior product but they do have better marketing)
You can buy Lenovo or Dell laptops with Linux preinstalled. There are also other companies which specialize in Linux laptops such as System76. Personally I have a System76 laptop and I'd say its a pretty good experience.
When buying a laptop without Linux, you're always risking that the drivers won't work properly. Companies such as Dell and System76 make sure the hardware will work correctly with Linux.
Ah cool, so it's in fact a lot better supported than I thought ...
Well actually I've installed Linux (mostly Ubuntu) on quite a few laptops, after wiping Windows or even dual boot - didn't have a lot of problems with drivers, I think Ubuntu is fairly complete with that, and it's getting better all the time - back then I still had to search and look for drivers and download them somewhere, or even compile from source, but I think nowadays that'll be rarely necessary anymore.
Even installed Ubuntu on a Mac a few times, what an adventure, that's a time consuming "hobby", but yeah even that worked.
But, it's good to hear that nowadays there are also well supported laptops available, with Linux preinstalled, from reputable manufacturers!
Yeah that would be annoying ... I thought that components and peripherals (and drivers) were so standardized nowadays that this might be a thing of the past, but I'm not doubting what you say ...
productivity-wise, windows is just better. It will get more things out of your way.
Didnt use to be like that, but now support for little things got better, and for the worst cases you can just slap incompatible things in docker containers.
TBH currently I'm using Mac OSX, not Linux, so that might make my arguments less compelling (because I suppose that Windows and OSX are seen as "on the same level"), but I've used Ubuntu in the past and found it a great experience, not missing anything ...
What then are the things that Windows gets "out of the way"? Unless you're talking about cases where you need 100% compatibility with stuff like MS Office and such, but otherwise I wouldn't know what I'm missing if I'm using Ubuntu ... regarding productivity, I never really liked Microsoft's UI/UX experience, for me the usability level of their products is low :)
Basically Linux gets in the way because it is constantly breaking something (besides missing the decent tools like PS or MS Office), or sometimes missing basic setup. Also, when you talk about drivers and peripherals, you get higher chance of getting unsupported. (for instance, my laptop comes with a power tweak software on windows). Talking about power, last time I checked, the power management for laptops on linux continues... weird, when non existing out of the box. Even Windows Vista already had better power management.
If you never had to fix weird problems on linux for sh*t that should just work, consider yourself lucky.
I dont know what you talk about UX. All OSes have the same UI for years. File managers and app search are all the same. Default gnome ubuntu side bar is hideous. Default ubuntu gnome app search is horrible. It only changes from the norm if you use something more geeky like a tiling window manager etc.
Gnome Classic (yes, Gnome Classic please, not that Unity thing which they're promoting on Ubuntu) looks just fine to me, but maybe I'm a bit more tolerant to that kind of stuff ...
I've used Linux for years and it was solid and reliable, so I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "Linux is constantly breaking something". It's more than 10 years ago since I last used Windows, but how many times has a Windows upgrade screwed things up badly? Too many times to count.
You may be right about some things like a higher chance of drivers missing or hardware not supported, but there are companies you can purchase laptops from with Linux preinstalled, and they will make sure that the hardware and the drivers work (including power management), meaning it's not really an issue then ... same situation as when you're buying a PC or laptop with Windows preinstalled.
And personally I don't use MS Office or Photoshop, so for me that's not an issue either (but obviously that's depending on personal needs and preferences then). If ever I'd occasionally had to use that kind of thing then VirtualBox worked well (with a "developer version" of Windows that's free to download).
Now for the upsides of Linux over Windows:
performance: Linux is way way way less of a memory and CPU hog, it runs rings around Windows performance wise ... it simply means that you'll be left with tons of usable RAM and disk, compared to Windows on the same hardware
for devs who prefer to work with the command line (which are many): Linux shell and terminal are vastly superior (even when taking into account improved Linux support under Windows via WSL)
the ability to install software and perform other (admin) tasks via the command line rather than having to do everything via a GUI is worth a lot to me (but again that's down to personal preference I suppose)
But I'll readily admit that I'm biased - I dumped Windows more than 10 years ago, switching to OSX and to Linux, and haven't looked back ever since ... whenever I'm forced to use a Microsoft product I notice that I dislike it a lot - and having to endlessly click around Windows config dialogs whenever someone asks me to "fix their PC" is something I hate with a vengeance, and try to avoid at all cost.
(Windows is the only OS that I've used which manages to have problems with something as basic as connecting to a Wifi network - I'm not kidding you, it happened to me AGAIN just a week ago with someone's PC - and no, I'm not going to waste my time fixing that, I told that person "sorry but this is Windows, life is short and I'm not ever going to waste my time again with this MS crap")
Yeah windows is not immune to driver issues (it actually happens a lot, which usually culminates in blue screens, bad wifi etc). And yeah you can buy a System76 (but why when you can buy an M1?)
Ive used linux a while ago, but I also play games in this machine, so dual-booted. When I noticed I was managing to do all my dev work just fine, Ive never logged back in linux. Yes you can game on linux (ive done it), it runs fast, but its linux, its quirky, it has bad support.
I dont feel performance issues on windows, while in linux the UI frequently does not even run at 144hz for some reason (when moving windows, scrolling etc). I never have issues after the PC sleeps/hibernates, bluetooth and connected devices work great, the UI do change sound outputs is great. Face recognition login works out of the box. Discord on windows is not bugged...
While linux uses less memory, when you get to swap land even the mouse freezes, which is ridiculous. When windows swaps you dont even notice it. Id pick linux for an old computer (windows 10 really sucks for old computers) but I got no reason to use it in this PC.
Gaming is often a reason for people to prefer (or even require) Windows ... well it shows that this is really down to personal preference and requirements - and everyone's experience with these systems or OS-es seems to be different, whether in a positive or in a negative way ... I think what's most important is that we have options, alternatives - what I wouldn't like is if we'd have ONLY Windows, or ONLY Mac/OSX, or ONLY Linux for that matter ... I would certainly dislike a monopoly, choices and options are a good thing.
Love Linux, but sometimes I need to use MS Word. Lucky for us, you can get a laptop with Windows and install Windows Subsystem for Linux 2 (because all good things deserve a sequel). WSL2 allows you to use Ubuntu on windows.
Yeah WSL is pretty good I've heard ... an alternative would be to run Linux, and then run Windows under it via VirtualBox, if you need to use MS Office?
OTOH I'm using OpenOffice and I believe it gets me 90% of the way there with MS Office compatibility ...
This definitely gets into the issue of a use case. If you are doing edge computing or something like that, then you are most likely using Linux. For me, if I am developing, then I have 20 browser tabs open, MS Word is open, and I have WSL2 running docker containers in the background. Also, it looks like Microsoft is starting to support Linux GUI .
Sounds good ... Microsoft seems to move in the right direction, they're no longer Steve Balmer's "evil empire" (Developers!!! Developers!!! Developers!!!!!!!!!)
Ya totally fair I was thinking about that when going to sleep last night. In my experience getting one with windows and wiping it is the best route as getting one without an OS is hard and it’s super easy to wipe and switch :) Linux takes less processing power than windows and you likely won’t be doing much gaming on it although more games are becoming available on Linux but generally you would be using Linux for work and not much else so you can definitely opt for the lower end of the laptops unless for some reason your work needs a lot of processing power and you are right Linux is great I have it on 1 of my computers and love it lol
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You haven't said much about OS, the implicit choice here seems to be between OSX and Windows (although the latter isn't explicitly mentioned) ...
What I was wondering about - what's the best option for someone who prefers Linux - does it always mean you buy a laptop with Windows preinstalled, and then you wipe it (or you make it dual boot), or are there laptops on the market without an OS preinstalled?
(a quick Google search shows that yes, laptops without an OS are available, it's just they're more hard to find, and they probably aren't sold by "grade A" suppliers, they're a bit more obscure brands - and no idea about the quality ... Microsoft and Apple don't necessarily have a superior product but they do have better marketing)
You can buy Lenovo or Dell laptops with Linux preinstalled. There are also other companies which specialize in Linux laptops such as System76. Personally I have a System76 laptop and I'd say its a pretty good experience.
When buying a laptop without Linux, you're always risking that the drivers won't work properly. Companies such as Dell and System76 make sure the hardware will work correctly with Linux.
Ah cool, so it's in fact a lot better supported than I thought ...
Well actually I've installed Linux (mostly Ubuntu) on quite a few laptops, after wiping Windows or even dual boot - didn't have a lot of problems with drivers, I think Ubuntu is fairly complete with that, and it's getting better all the time - back then I still had to search and look for drivers and download them somewhere, or even compile from source, but I think nowadays that'll be rarely necessary anymore.
Even installed Ubuntu on a Mac a few times, what an adventure, that's a time consuming "hobby", but yeah even that worked.
But, it's good to hear that nowadays there are also well supported laptops available, with Linux preinstalled, from reputable manufacturers!
You might not necessarily have your wifi not work at all, but I've seen glitches in generic drivers (scroll not working sometimes, etc).
Yeah that would be annoying ... I thought that components and peripherals (and drivers) were so standardized nowadays that this might be a thing of the past, but I'm not doubting what you say ...
For basic things such as Wi-Fi adapters, keyboards, touchpads, it mostly is a thing of the past.
There are still issues with Fingerprint readers or other more "specific" components though ! Still worth it to me ;)
productivity-wise, windows is just better. It will get more things out of your way.
Didnt use to be like that, but now support for little things got better, and for the worst cases you can just slap incompatible things in docker containers.
TBH currently I'm using Mac OSX, not Linux, so that might make my arguments less compelling (because I suppose that Windows and OSX are seen as "on the same level"), but I've used Ubuntu in the past and found it a great experience, not missing anything ...
What then are the things that Windows gets "out of the way"? Unless you're talking about cases where you need 100% compatibility with stuff like MS Office and such, but otherwise I wouldn't know what I'm missing if I'm using Ubuntu ... regarding productivity, I never really liked Microsoft's UI/UX experience, for me the usability level of their products is low :)
Basically Linux gets in the way because it is constantly breaking something (besides missing the decent tools like PS or MS Office), or sometimes missing basic setup. Also, when you talk about drivers and peripherals, you get higher chance of getting unsupported. (for instance, my laptop comes with a power tweak software on windows). Talking about power, last time I checked, the power management for laptops on linux continues... weird, when non existing out of the box. Even Windows Vista already had better power management.
If you never had to fix weird problems on linux for sh*t that should just work, consider yourself lucky.
I dont know what you talk about UX. All OSes have the same UI for years. File managers and app search are all the same. Default gnome ubuntu side bar is hideous. Default ubuntu gnome app search is horrible. It only changes from the norm if you use something more geeky like a tiling window manager etc.
Gnome Classic (yes, Gnome Classic please, not that Unity thing which they're promoting on Ubuntu) looks just fine to me, but maybe I'm a bit more tolerant to that kind of stuff ...
I've used Linux for years and it was solid and reliable, so I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "Linux is constantly breaking something". It's more than 10 years ago since I last used Windows, but how many times has a Windows upgrade screwed things up badly? Too many times to count.
You may be right about some things like a higher chance of drivers missing or hardware not supported, but there are companies you can purchase laptops from with Linux preinstalled, and they will make sure that the hardware and the drivers work (including power management), meaning it's not really an issue then ... same situation as when you're buying a PC or laptop with Windows preinstalled.
And personally I don't use MS Office or Photoshop, so for me that's not an issue either (but obviously that's depending on personal needs and preferences then). If ever I'd occasionally had to use that kind of thing then VirtualBox worked well (with a "developer version" of Windows that's free to download).
Now for the upsides of Linux over Windows:
performance: Linux is way way way less of a memory and CPU hog, it runs rings around Windows performance wise ... it simply means that you'll be left with tons of usable RAM and disk, compared to Windows on the same hardware
for devs who prefer to work with the command line (which are many): Linux shell and terminal are vastly superior (even when taking into account improved Linux support under Windows via WSL)
the ability to install software and perform other (admin) tasks via the command line rather than having to do everything via a GUI is worth a lot to me (but again that's down to personal preference I suppose)
But I'll readily admit that I'm biased - I dumped Windows more than 10 years ago, switching to OSX and to Linux, and haven't looked back ever since ... whenever I'm forced to use a Microsoft product I notice that I dislike it a lot - and having to endlessly click around Windows config dialogs whenever someone asks me to "fix their PC" is something I hate with a vengeance, and try to avoid at all cost.
(Windows is the only OS that I've used which manages to have problems with something as basic as connecting to a Wifi network - I'm not kidding you, it happened to me AGAIN just a week ago with someone's PC - and no, I'm not going to waste my time fixing that, I told that person "sorry but this is Windows, life is short and I'm not ever going to waste my time again with this MS crap")
Yeah windows is not immune to driver issues (it actually happens a lot, which usually culminates in blue screens, bad wifi etc). And yeah you can buy a System76 (but why when you can buy an M1?)
Ive used linux a while ago, but I also play games in this machine, so dual-booted. When I noticed I was managing to do all my dev work just fine, Ive never logged back in linux. Yes you can game on linux (ive done it), it runs fast, but its linux, its quirky, it has bad support.
I dont feel performance issues on windows, while in linux the UI frequently does not even run at 144hz for some reason (when moving windows, scrolling etc). I never have issues after the PC sleeps/hibernates, bluetooth and connected devices work great, the UI do change sound outputs is great. Face recognition login works out of the box. Discord on windows is not bugged...
While linux uses less memory, when you get to swap land even the mouse freezes, which is ridiculous. When windows swaps you dont even notice it. Id pick linux for an old computer (windows 10 really sucks for old computers) but I got no reason to use it in this PC.
Gaming is often a reason for people to prefer (or even require) Windows ... well it shows that this is really down to personal preference and requirements - and everyone's experience with these systems or OS-es seems to be different, whether in a positive or in a negative way ... I think what's most important is that we have options, alternatives - what I wouldn't like is if we'd have ONLY Windows, or ONLY Mac/OSX, or ONLY Linux for that matter ... I would certainly dislike a monopoly, choices and options are a good thing.
Love Linux, but sometimes I need to use MS Word. Lucky for us, you can get a laptop with Windows and install Windows Subsystem for Linux 2 (because all good things deserve a sequel). WSL2 allows you to use Ubuntu on windows.
I loved it so much, I even put together a quick video on how to do this installation at : courses.whiteowleducation.com/courses/machine-learning-mastery/lectures/30614920
Yeah WSL is pretty good I've heard ... an alternative would be to run Linux, and then run Windows under it via VirtualBox, if you need to use MS Office?
OTOH I'm using OpenOffice and I believe it gets me 90% of the way there with MS Office compatibility ...
This definitely gets into the issue of a use case. If you are doing edge computing or something like that, then you are most likely using Linux. For me, if I am developing, then I have 20 browser tabs open, MS Word is open, and I have WSL2 running docker containers in the background. Also, it looks like Microsoft is starting to support Linux GUI .
Sounds good ... Microsoft seems to move in the right direction, they're no longer Steve Balmer's "evil empire" (Developers!!! Developers!!! Developers!!!!!!!!!)
Ya totally fair I was thinking about that when going to sleep last night. In my experience getting one with windows and wiping it is the best route as getting one without an OS is hard and it’s super easy to wipe and switch :) Linux takes less processing power than windows and you likely won’t be doing much gaming on it although more games are becoming available on Linux but generally you would be using Linux for work and not much else so you can definitely opt for the lower end of the laptops unless for some reason your work needs a lot of processing power and you are right Linux is great I have it on 1 of my computers and love it lol