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Svelte Radio

Building ListenAddict with David W. Parker

Note: This was recorded on February 4th, some things may not be up to date.

Sponsors: Support Svelte Radio by leaving a review on iTunes and/or visit our support page.

Parker shows us ListenAddict. We talk a bit about building stuff using Svelte and what's next.

Unpopular opinions:
- Antony: The {#await} syntax should be removed from Svelte
- Shawn: ESM was a bad idea


Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  0:00  
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Svelte radio. Today we have yet another guest with us to talk about Svelte. But first introductions. I'm Kevin, I run a site called Svelte school. And I'm heavily involved in the Svelte community in general. And I'm just a Svelte evangelist, I guess.

Antony  0:20  
I'm Antony, I'm the CTF Beyonk. And I'm also Svelte maintainer

Shawn  0:26  
I work as a senior developer advocate at AWS, this is probably my last time in that role. And I'll have a new role coming up. Next time we do this recording, where hopefully, I think, if I'm not mistaken, I'll be working on a production Svelte project. So more needs to come hiding

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  0:46  
ideas. And our guest today is David Parker. He's a software developer, I guess. Maybe you can introduce yourself. Yeah,

David Parker  0:58  
I'm David Parker. I normally go by Parker, and I am CTO at Hobby DB for my day job where I do Angular, unfortunately. But I spend a lot of my free time doing Svelte and I run my site called listen addict calm, which we'll talk about a little bit later. And I'm making another project after that. So,

Antony  1:19  
so I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna point out here that that title developer, you know, with a guy who has two side projects, we should looking pretty decent. I'm going to say entrepreneur. It's a good title. I would like that.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  1:36  
All right, so before we get into the meat of the discussion, all, all are written sponsors, bots. So the first sponsors bought is actually not a sponsor, it's just some news about that. You can now support Svelte radio directly, so you'll get access to video versions of the podcast or you'll be able to listen to the episodes a couple of days early, even unedited, sometimes, so head on over to Svelte slash support, and you can read more about it there. Oh, and secondly, if you like the podcast, it would be awesome if you could leave a review on iTunes and subscribe. Alright, and that's it for the Yay, answers.

Shawn  2:24  
I wish you I don't know. It's like, it's a great way to support independent radio, I guess. And this is this is kind of what we're doing.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  2:32  
Yeah. Yeah. It's it's like, yeah, it's easier than then hunting like sponsor, like real sponsors, I suppose. But I

Antony  2:43  
guess you know, after a while, they'll sort of just appear out of the woodwork really. So yeah, it's, but it's nice, I think I think being able to pay for something that has value, you know. And then having that sort of inside info, or the Sneak Peek is really, really valuable. So I think it's good. I think I like I like it.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  3:00  
We'll see how it goes. Do you run a Patreon as well? No. So I've actually looked at a couple of different solutions for this. And Patreon was one of them. But there's, there's like a lot of not being in the US and having to handle like VAT is a real hassle. patron does it for you, but the like the fees they take are ginormous. So I found some other some other ways to solve this. I'm think I'm currently going to use paddle. It's it's like a handle digital products and software. Pretty much I draw

Antony  3:41  
the line, I draw the line that only fans I have a body for radio.

David Parker  3:51  
I have a comment. I don't think it's appropriate for this audience. So I'll hold my tongue.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  3:59  
Alright, so so let's let's get into it. So so you're you said you were a an Angular developer, on your on your day job. So how did you end up doing doing Angular?

David Parker  4:11  
So I'll just give you a super, super fast, short version of my history real quick. I was in the military in the United States, from 2000 to 2006, as a Java developer, so I basically sat in front of a computer and coded for the military was very boring. But that really got me didn't even know you could, you could do that. You know, there's a lot of systems that you have to keep track of like tracking people, personnel, training, all all the things but not very exciting. I don't like the corporate structure, but I got out, turned around and became a contractor work for them for three more years making three times as much money because you know, when you're and you don't make any money, but that kind of, as Anthony alluded to before, kind of pushed me in that entrepreneurial direction during the big corporate type thing. So then I went back to school grad school because I had free money for from the military, and did entrepreneurship, and computer science. There, I met a co worker or a co founder of my previous company called devise. We were a rails and AngularJS. And at the time, this was a little bit before react and all the, you know, jQuery is kind of just leaving popularity, even though it's still popular backbone was kind of plus or minus, I didn't really care for it at the time. So we chose to start our company with AngularJS. And that's kind of where I got the start in Angular, we never really upgraded and that company to, you know, angular 2.0. And thus, for what it's now and now is. And then moving on from there, that company was sold, and spent some other time doing react, and played around with view a little bit, played around with Django. And then I joined Hobie dB, and they were already using Angular. So that's how I came to be my current role. Cool. So

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  6:01  
so so what is hobby DB is like an e commerce. Yeah,

David Parker  6:07  
it's a it's a e commerce site where people can buy and sell anything that's collectible. So the little pop Funko dolls. If you're familiar with rose, I don't know how popular they are outside of the United States. They seem to be kind of trendy. And I'm, I guess we are a marketplace for those is the the main thing and Hot Wheels, the little cars. Those are our two main.

Antony  6:30  
So this. This is called hobbie dB. That's, that's that's an interesting name. Because it I really thought it was like a system for development. Yeah, I really, I thought it was like a, you know, the name the name did not draw a picture of what the what the product is. It's interesting.

David Parker  6:47  
Yeah. Yeah. They were around for about three years before I joined the team. And then I took over a CTO there and the previous VP of Engineering and CTO was taking off. So I'm still in a Fingers crossed, do we? Will we ever have the time to upgrade off of their stack to you know, Svelte or something different? But it seems like we're always chasing? Yeah.

Antony  7:13  
So I guess it's all for the push, isn't it? Yeah. And then I think do you think people who were sorry, do you think people who work with you've got an appetite for something outside of Angular? Or do you think they are kind of pretty happy with Angular, and the dev team is definitely excited about other things.

David Parker  7:32  
It's kind of hard not to get them hyped off. They're very into next j. s, which is the React. super popular one, which is fair, most of our development team is in South America. And you know, right, making sure that their skills are up to date. And in the popular realm.

Antony  7:51  
That's fair enough. Yeah. I mean, you can't blame us for that really Kenya's face.

David Parker  7:55  
But I have turned them on to some Svelte things. So we're trying to get little internal tools here and there used to

Antony  8:03  
so it's funny how, yeah, all you need is like a little a little way in. And then suddenly, people kind of prefer writing this. And then suddenly, everything becomes the spell and what you thought was, right, that's happened in a couple of places I've worked out and it's quite a nice feeling. doesn't always work doesn't always work at all. I mean, there was a place I worked out, which is Redux and sagas and react. And I tried, I started writing login screens and stuff for things in Svelte, but it didn't really catch on.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  8:32  
Yeah, I mean, sometimes people are stuck in their ways.

Shawn  8:36  
I think it's a particular challenge to CTOs. Because at some point, your stack will be out of date. And then there's always a question of like, when do you rewrite to keep developers happy, while at the same time, like, rewriting just for the sake of rewriting has zero business value? And, like, how do you make that decision? So I don't I haven't come across it. Yeah.

Antony  8:55  
I think one of the roles of CTO is that you don't, you don't make a decision. Right. You, you, you offer up alternatives you advise, you know, you provide benefits and widen landscape, but you don't necessarily push your team in a direction. Because it really, you know, in the end, it's up to the team who actually doing especially as a CTO of a larger company, you are not developing yourself, you're kind of more providing a background for people who are developing in your team.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  9:25  
Right? So So you've, you've found Svelte and you've fallen in love with you know,

David Parker  9:34  
I  really have it's kind of funky because I when I played with view, and when I did a lot of react, a lot of reactor and contract time between you vias and Javi dB. I did I did that whole Redux saga thing as well. Went down that rabbit hole and and I've played with you know, hooks and you know, newer things too, but still sometime I think it was last year, really early on. So pre COVID days I was watching rich talk about something and I don't remember what and I was just like, that looks really cool. And then when COVID started, I was stuck at home a lot more. So I was like, well, I want to make this product. And I really wanted to make it for myself. And you know what I'm going to try to do you know sapper with it. And so the nice thing is that I really, really like probably more than anything almost, is the fact that you can literally go through the entire tutorial, and all the documentation for Svelte in four hours. You know, you can go through the entire thing, and, and you've done at least a little bit of everything, and no, you don't know it all. But you've tried it all. And you can see how it works. That to me was the biggest selling point because I went through the whole documentation. And I was like, pre sold because I didn't have to take a week to try to learn everything.

Antony  10:54  
Yeah, that's the same reason I'm here, right? That's exact same reason the tutorial, I'm very impatient. I you know, I get distracted easily. Whatever you want to call it, ADHD, you name it. But basically, something needs to be quite terse and quick, and you know, learn it, and it's and it's perfect for Svelte, it's just like that. And I guess is a good answer. People who, who raise bug requests saying why can't we add this API and this API and this API is because that would that that length would grow the length of time?

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  11:20  
So what did you first build in Svelte? So is listening to first kind of thing that you

David Parker  11:25  
Yes, it is, actually, I kind of just went, you know, all the way down. So, quick breakdown of what listen addict is just for the listeners is, it's basically a place where you can go subscribe to a person, kind of like you'd subscribe to a podcast. So if you really liked Kevin, specifically, and he was on other podcasts, you'd subscribe to him. And you get notified every time he's on any different show, or Antony or Shawn or whatever. So that's, versus just being subscribed to you know, Svelte radios by itself, you, you might subscribe to that to somewhere else, but on my site, he would subscribe to a specific person. And yeah, so I wanted to do so. And I figured might as well and this is a product for myself, I built it for me. You know, if I really MVP, I would just build the back end and email myself when somebody who knew was on. But I was I wanted to build something fun in the front end. And it just kind of grew and grew and grew and became a little bit more than my MVP should have been. I had a lot. I had a lot of fun with you knows, you know, cell phones, like getting into animations. And I'm not the best with animations and these kinds of things. And it made it really easy to do really silly things that I kept on pushing my MVP back for.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  12:43  
So kind of a double edged sword there. Yeah, to get it out there. But then you get stuck in all these nice features. Yeah,

Antony  12:51  
exactly. But it's the guest best kind of product, right? You built it for yourself. That's just essential. That's absolutely how to do it.

David Parker  12:56  
I don't think I could build something that is just strictly market driven. I have to be able to control myself. My The next product I'm building is also for myself. So yeah.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  13:07  
So so. So is it just swept and separate all through your day? Are you using some other service

David Parker  13:14  
on the back end, the technical back end is all rails. It was just really easy for me to build an API for that. I'm a big fan of flutter. I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with flutter. So I've played a lot with that for mobile apps. And it's, it's brings a lot of joy, kind of like Svelte does for me for the web. So I wanted to build my back end. And what I am super familiar with is that I can go fast. So all the backend is on rails. I would love to eventually learn go Lang or something else and replace it, but it's not as important. And then the front end is just all Svelte and sapper.

Shawn  13:51  
And to deal with any challenges, integrating Svelte with rails, I think you have to use something like a web Packer with rails, oh, no real estate, well,

David Parker  13:59  
there's this app, I decided to make it separate applications entirely. So the rails back end is purely an API. So you hit a web request, and it returns some JSON. And that's it. That way, I could keep it completely separate for the flutter app that I pinched, eventually plan on doing. And that's why I didn't want to be completely separate. But yes, you're correct in that if you were to do it from scratch in one application, so it's all rails with sapper Wytheville, or whatever it would use web Packer or something like that.

Shawn  14:27  
I wonder if there's like a rule of thumb or complicated. Yes, it's,

David Parker  14:30  
it's way more it's way more complicated. I love having it separate. It makes it so fast.

Shawn  14:35  
Yeah. API's are like the native, you know, foreign function interface of the web. It's so interesting, talking about flutter, right? Like, I've messed around a little bit with it. flutter has a web equivalent. Why not build the whole thing in flutter? or build the whole thing is Svelte and Svelte native.

David Parker  14:53  
So I'll answer that two ways. One when I was really getting into flutter two years ago, When I was really getting into flutter, they flutter web was not ready. And from what I've read, it still might be ready question mark, in that certain things you can't let you couldn't even like copy and paste, text and things like that, because of the way flutter works. So flutter web was just not ready when I looked at it. So flutter web does.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  15:19  
Does that work the same way that flutter works on mobile? Like it has its own canvas and renders stuff

David Parker  15:26  
on on it at the time? It did. I'm not sure now, because I haven't looked since To be honest, right? years ago. Yeah. And then same thing with Svelte native. I honestly haven't even tried it yet.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  15:36  
Yeah. So I so I've actually, so there's some some news for for an upcoming episode. I've talked to a guy who's made some Svelte native application. And he's going to be found one episodes to talk about it with us. So that's, that's nice. You're interested?

David Parker  15:57  
I'll definitely listen to that.

Unknown Speaker  15:59  
Yeah, yeah.

Shawn  16:01  
So it is, it is one of those things, I actually spend a lot of time kind of advocating for this sort of separation between front end and back end. So you're, you have the choice of technologies, when you're building different clients. So you're kind of living that right now.

David Parker  16:15  
I definitely agree with that. And I hate the whole, you know, I have a hammer and everything is a nail. And I feel like I find that so much. And especially in JavaScript land. People want to apply it to everything. And I'm not sure if you are familiar with Jeff Atwood, but he has a atwoods law, which anything that's written in code will eventually be written in JavaScript or something along those lines. And he he published that like 15 years ago, or something like that.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  16:42  
Sounds familiar.

David Parker  16:44  
So I always think, you know, why not use the best tool for the job. And that's why I didn't use just express with sapper to build my API. It's why I didn't use rails with web Packer. I think that rails as an API, I can get things done incredibly fast front end, just sticking it with sapper and Svelte and tailwind, I'm doing things way faster than I would try to implant rails with it. And and when I played with flutter a couple years ago, it was fast to implement things. And I can't say that I won't check out Svelte native, because I'm definitely excited about new technologies. But I don't want to do the hammer thing. make everything a nail? Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  17:26  
Fair enough. Make sense? Okay. So you've also got this, this other thing that you you're working on, right? I saw I saw a comment on Hacker News. So this is actually how I found you, I think, you're you're doing something called us producer, sniper, you Yeah,

David Parker  17:43  
use. So, of course, is taken, because that's quite expensive run by somebody.

Antony  17:49  
So I bought the domain.

David Parker  17:51  
And so, you know, I'm calling a producer, this domain is used producer, like, I'm going to use this. And that's going to be a product, leaning towards YouTubers, but then also eventually podcasters and other content creators, where it's a project management tool, basically. So you know, Kevin, I'll probably reach out to you at some point after this, you know, a few months down the line when I have an MVP and our need for better beta users, but you're trying to create episodic content, where you're doing the same thing over and over and over again, and, you know, you have your job, and Antony has his job, and everybody has their jobs, right. And so you can have a team corporated. And it's kind of automatic. So you do your thing. And then, you know, Shawn gets notified, it's his turn to do his thing he does it, he could click the play button, and it automatically tweets for you. And so then you don't have to go into Twitter and tweet because that's already finished as well. And then you go back and you check your, you know, you click whatever on YouTube and then basically, an all encompassing project management tool in I've found there's quite a few different tools based off the interviews I've done with mostly podcasters at this point, and a few YouTubers, but on the YouTube side of it, especially there's less team coordinated things. It seems like a lot more podcasters are using more generic pet tools like notion versus something that's specifically to podcasters but

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  19:20  
yeah, yeah, that's that's what what we're using now notion. Antony made a template This was

Antony  19:30  
my CEO is obsessed with with notion so he is because the show was cool like he's basically using it like Excel. He said, We everything's linked to everything else, which is kind of like nice. He does have benefits to that sounds scary. But I just get frustrated with the you. Yeah, no, it is scary as well. But I get frustrated with the UI and it's definitely like, it's that tool is the hammer you talked about before. Is it Parkour is the hammer. It does everything. everything looks like a nail. It's good, but it's also not good. And, you know, I kind of missed Trello I yearn for my Trello days.

David Parker  20:04  
Yeah, I've used notion some and I agree. It's, it's a very, very, very powerful hammer. And it's fun, but then it can get bogged down and it can get slow. And you know, there's different issues with it, too. But I want to build it, I want to build a tool that's specific to the episodic content creators.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  20:22  
It makes sense, Shawn, how do you cuz you're, you have another podcast that you you do with Reynold cannot, right. Yeah. And

Shawn  20:31  
I do three.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  20:34  
So So how do you organise your your podcasts,

Shawn  20:39  
were random, I have a Google Doc, where we just put ideas of episodes. And it's, it's important that it's short. So we try to plan the content, but then we don't try to plan it too much. Because then it becomes very scripted and artificial. So we just try to make sure that we logged on our ideas and then organised like the main points you want to hit, I think shownotes is a is an important thing to get right, at least for me when I listen to podcasts. So having them prepped, and then, you know, make it like an easy copy paste job, at the end is pretty important to me. And that's about it. I mean, I do think I do think that supporting creative creative workflows for episodic content is important. But I think my pain point is actually more around like once I've done something once. I'll like tweet it out once, but then really not that many people will see it the first time like I actually need to break it up into chunks and share it again. And again, and again. So to really spread it out over time and maximise the value of the the the time they put in. So I've been looking at some tools to do that to do audio and video clips.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  21:42  
Oh, like like short, shorter ones? Yeah, I even had to take snippets.

Shawn  21:48  
30 seconds. I said, even like 10 seconds snippets of like, just

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  21:51  
actually thought about that today. Yeah, doing Instagram, short, short, like stories or whatever. I don't know if there are many.

Shawn  22:00  
Yeah, I've a little repo of this, that that helps. Where I'm keeping notes on tools like specs, D script, audio mass, and then, headliner dot app, wave, co These are all tools in this space that I'm exploring,

David Parker  22:17  
I will definitely check out a lot of those too. Yeah, I want to build things like that. Or, you know, the episode may be published, but the job isn't done for it yet. You still have to do follow one work, or you know, you want to tweet out a week later, two weeks later, a month later, three months later, to be like, hey, check out this episode that I wrote, and having that audibly, as much as possible, automated. You know, obviously, sometimes, if you want to do snippets that you need to edit in, that might not be so automated, but having the tweet ready or having the, you know, Reddit post or whatever, I can automate and be as easy as possible.

Shawn  22:54  
Would that be a psychic job for you? In real? Yes, that,

David Parker  22:57  
yeah. It would just be queued up God, that would happen eventually.

Shawn  23:02  
I like these, I like these things. I like these automation tools as a side project ideas, because it's kind of like fire and forget. And the the value is not tied to your time invested in it. And so I, I am looking to get better at these things. I'm not using psychic by using some other scheduling stuff.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  23:20  
Yeah. So So what is Sidekick

David Parker  23:22  
Sidekick is a Redis based cue system for Ruby. And since Rails is Ruby, it's just easy to throw a sidekick on there and say, Hey, here's a job that's going to happen once a day or incorporate into a cron task. And then it'll just run in a background worker somewhere. So I also run a YouTube channel, which is this is the fulfil my own, you know, problem kind of thing. I've paused on it at about two years ago, two and a half years ago, I think, no, because I had a daughter, who's taken up most of my time, but now she's getting at an age where she is largely self sufficient for a lot of things anyway. So I'm getting back into to shake. Have fun for yourself, right? Yeah, totally. She's, she's fine. So my intent with us producer is, you know, I'm revisiting my old workflows for my YouTube channel and trying to figure out what was my personal pain points. But now that the, you know, the content creator economy is growing, as has grown so much, even since I've stepped away for a couple years, trying to get not just my own feedback, but get feedback from other creators.

Shawn  24:28  
Yeah, I think this is a pretty good idea.

Antony  24:31  
There's several that

David Parker  24:32  
work in different niches that I'm trying to blend. And I think that's the thing. So I've played a lot around with the YouTube API's, for example, and a lot of the stuff that I have enjoyed doing. This is not episode of content, part of my app, but the other part is just, you know, analysis of your content. And I've done a lot of research against, you know, my competitors, so to speak, you just using the YouTube API, and I love checking out that kind of stuff. So I looked at who did Those that already in the space. And so there's two buddy and vid IQ are the big two. But they're just Chrome extensions, like super big little Chrome extensions that modify the YouTube channel, just the site itself. And so they're not like separate applications for managing, you know, the content itself there. They just allow you to automatically fill in, you know, tag list and other things for you.

Antony  25:28  
I think, I think, yeah, it's difficult. It's difficult to build a tool, which is generic enough that everyone can use it, but also simple enough, you know, flexibility is complexity. And before you know where you are, you end up with no, right? This is it all back resolve a cyclic and goes back to the same thing that if you make it too good, you're going to end up with something that really doesn't suit anyone. So I think I don't know. I don't envy your task there in terms of in terms of merging all this weird niches.

David Parker  26:00  
Yeah, that's why I really want to focus mostly on youtubers to begin with, and then make it well enough for the the episodic portion for podcasters. There's podcasting. I feel like has a lot more competition in terms of products that already exist.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  26:18  
Yeah. So I assume you're gonna build this in Svelte and Falcon?

David Parker  26:24  
Yeah, I'm gonna need to do Svelte kit. I keep on waiting for it to get published. So the landing page for the officer? Yes. Is a is done in just sapper, because it was just easy for me to export it. As you know, it's a single landing page with an email form. Pretty simple. I want to jump back to listen real quick. cuz I've heard him too. I didn't get to mention this before. So talking about MVP, and like exciting, different things and awaiting. This is really cheesy. A few guys can have your computers up. But if you check out, listen, on the desktop, not on your phone. I have to when I used to love tailwind and we could talk about that if you want or not. At the top, I have dark mode and light mode. And then if next to it, I have my little palette builder. So if you click that, it should do a nice little animation. I wish I just had so much fun with that. And so that was fun and experience that is fine. It's super satisfying. And it was so easy to do in Svelte and I showed my wife and she's like, so when does this MVP launch?

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  27:32  
And I'm like, well,

Unknown Speaker  27:33  
well Svelte made me do this. Sorry.

Antony  27:36  
Yeah, right.

David Parker  27:38  
So wait, so So you did well in in tailwind? That's, that's a little bit hard to do. No, is super, super easy. And it's ridiculous. My CSS is ridiculously small. I know. Some people just hate tailwind and and we can go into that if you want. But it for me, it was easy. I think each of my files for my colours was 1.3 kilobytes. And then my total for the rest of the CSS was like three something or four something. And that's per colour. So 1.3 kilobytes per colour. And it gives me light mode and dark mode.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  28:14  
So it's pretty nice.

David Parker  28:16  
And then you know, and the other thing is, of course, because you guys don't see this, I have built myself a moderator dashboard and an admin dashboard for listen addict, with the intent that eventually I can pay some Mechanical Turk people or something to help moderate new content on listen addict. And I have all the keyboard shortcuts and all these other things built in. Because he just made that so freaking easy. I was ridiculous. I just so when I go and add new content on there, it takes me minutes, because I'm just using keyboard shortcuts and all these other things that I've made that were so fast to do.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  28:53  
So are you are you adding the content manually done? Yeah. So be it does the work.

David Parker  29:00  
Because not every podcast is interview based. And I want it to be hyper focused on interviews. So I want to say that 90% of my content is interview based podcasts. And every given podcast, not generally, generally not 100% of the episodes are interviews, there may be something else here or there. So that's kind of the gist of it is I am currently manually curating and trying to find new content. And it literally, it was up front. And it is still to find the original source. But once I find, you know, the podcast and RSS feed, it's fairly simple. I have a very, very simple mg tagging library that I use plus a little bit of heuristics and algorithms that I've written to extract out people's names automatically. So I don't have to go in and add people. it'll pick up all right As long as they're in the title of the episode, I am at like a 95% hit rate. And the other 5% is manual intervention. So that's what I would need moderators for.

Antony  30:12  
I think manual curation is a really good way to go. You know, we do a lot of things manually as well. And at some point, you figure out what works, what doesn't work, because you've done it manually, and you've been involved there. And then you can automate those tasks, rather than trying to automate it up front. And then you know, do something that doesn't really work and then start tweaking code and bugs and stuff. doing it manually is a very good a very valid method, in fact, of MVP style stuff. So yeah, definitely has a great way to get closer to your

David Parker  30:39  
customers. And that's that's sort of the approach I've taken, because I basically built out a few tools, tools for myself as a moderator. But now it's at a point where a lot of that can be passed on to other people to do it manually, for cheap, if I can, or taking some of that and automating it slowly. My the hard part, of course, as you said before, with the entrepreneurship thing, and multiple products is now 80% of my code time is going towards these producer, listen, addict more just for fun for me. And it's at a very stable position at this point. I may or may not try to monetize it, I don't think it's anything people will pay for. But I could throw ads on it, I guess it's not that important to me, it's very cheap to run. So I would much rather spend my time on using it on us producers. So that way I can get that launched and actually try to make money in quit my job.

Shawn  31:33  
So So I have a suggestion on how to monetize this. And this is something that so I used to be an equity analyst and a hedge fund. And my job would be to follow the CEO and CTOs and whatever of the public companies that I'm invested in. But it's hard to keep track of the public interviews that they do, and increasingly more and more than we're doing podcasts. So basically, I would want to give you a list of stock tickers to look up like their their C suite, essentially. And if any of them do any podcasts, I want to know about it. I want a transcript. And yeah, I want to email to me. So like, if you want like a b2b version of that, where people will pay for it. Probably that's, that will be a path.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  32:17  
Oh, interesting. I

David Parker  32:17  
haven't even thought of that. Everything I'm thinking is, you know, consumer based stuff. So that's very interesting.

Shawn  32:23  
Oh, yeah. b2b is where the money is you Everyone knows that. Right?

Antony  32:26  
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Shawn  32:28  
So So and actually, I have a further hypothesis, which is, if you see someone, if you see like a CEO, doing like a podcast for, you know, their company's doing well, so you should just buy the stock. Like, like, is that now Michelle? Michelle zetlin is doing every podcast. So you know, CloudFlare is just crushing it. Like, they're, they're releasing their, their quarter is, in a couple of days. I think it's obvious, like no one if a company's doing poorly, you're you're not doing podcasts. Right. So this is that, like now,

David Parker  33:00  
with so many podcasts though? Or two people?

Shawn  33:04  
I mean, I mean, it's obviously it's it's a little bit tongue in cheek and you should not take that as investment advice. But there's a there's a bit of a theory like Jeff Lawson,

David Parker  33:15  
for the big public company to

Shawn  33:16  
Twilio. Oh, shit. Jeff Lawson, CEO of Twilio, you know, wrote monster book and now he's like doing a book tour. Twilio is obviously doing well. You know, like, there's a there's a slight correlation, I guess. I don't know. Anyway, the point is to make it easier for stock analysts to keep up to date on their companies. So right now you're focused on you don't have a theme like there's like celebrities, there's like some people I don't know what the theme of the people is, but if you could focus on on a monetizable niche of speakers then that might work.

Unknown Speaker  33:48  
Okay, cool.

David Parker  33:50  
Yet to let you know, the theme is basically software engineers, business people, entrepreneurs, and a little bit of celebrities mostly for SEO juice. But those are the people I generally want to know who are entrepreneurs and software people are generally who I want to I personally want to get notified of certain people when they have a new podcast and like Adam within tailender rich you know, sell things it's like okay, I want to hear

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  34:18  
but the

David Parker  34:21  
to get high on Google, I want to pump it up with some celebrities.

Antony  34:25  
Is this riding high on Google? This

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  34:27  
reminds me of like said

Antony  34:28  
You said you burns weekend.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  34:32  
I listened to an episode of what's what's the podcast called? It's like tiny seed tails or something like that. And there was this guest who had made like a happy birthday site for like birthdays birthday site for celebrities, where people could look up celebrities. And it was doing like massively well and scoring like, top of Google all All the time, just for. That's crazy. Yeah. It surprised why it surprised me. But it makes sense, though. And if you think about it,

Antony  35:13  
people so I'm always a tech, the tech partner in startups, right? I'm never the business partner because I don't want anything else wants. And I can't think of things that people want.

David Parker  35:25  
I was the same way before. And I kind of that's why I went to school, I ended up getting a double masters, because I wanted to learn more on the entrepreneurship side, as well as computer science because I just I can live in tech all day and never do any marketing. And then no one uses my stuff. But I wanted to try to get on that other side a little bit more.

Antony  35:44  
Yeah. It's a good Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a valuable skill. Absolutely valuable skill.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  35:48  
It is. It is a lot of fun as well, I feel. So with Svelte.

David Parker  35:54  
I'm leaving you guys, because you guys are a little bit more. I'm on the discord channel. It's so hard to, for me to plug into communities. I think I'm mostly active on indie hackers, and a little bit on Hacker News. But I'm in 10 different discord channels. I'm in 10 different slack channels. How do you guys choose your niche? I just curious, this is me interviewing you. But just in terms of getting plugged in because I would I would love to eventually contribute to you know, actually contribute to Svelte itself as a contributor, you know, on the development side,

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  36:29  
or, you

David Parker  36:30  
know, same with like flutter or whatever those would probably be the two that I'd prefer to be able to contribute to if I could ever take the time to do that and give back to the community beyond just building products and be you know, raising developer awareness about these technologies. How do you guys plug in or do you just, you're all in on Svelte and that's easy just to focus there.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  36:50  
I think it's hard. Like, like the like the Svelte discord is probably the only discord that I am all in on if that makes sense. I'm in a couple of others as well like the CSS discord and like. Like some cryptocurrency ones as well. But yeah, it's hard.

Antony  37:15  
Yeah, I'm not too different, like the Svelte discord is where I spend probably 90% of my like eyesight, I've got a discord my company as well. And that gets tempted my friend Jim godsey. It's a lot less active, right? Isn't he 70s is in there and, and Svelte was 2000, something as to how I keep sort of aware of everything, it kind of comes up. When a startup gets to a certain size that you have to learn about other things, because you really have to pick the optimal solution is gone from building a hobby project in Svelte only and only focusing on Svelte to. Now I build it in Svelte because it is the best of everything I need. But I do need to be aware of how react tackles problems, how view tackles problems, how all these different builders like Webpack and roll them to tackle problems. So it will be mostly Twitter, I would say that, you know, Twitter as my, in terms of social media is purely tech, I don't follow many people outside of tech. And I don't really see many tweets outside of tech, which is quite nice. I really value Twitter for that alone, I get all the updates. I get, you know, crazy stuff from people who are so far from what I do every day, but still in the tech space. That's that's kind of why I like Twitter, I guess. But yeah, it is very difficult to keep track of everything. And you really can't, I think you have to be a generalising specialist which kind of applies to many aspects of work and things but just keep a focus but always be able to be distracted. You have other things in your periphery, I suppose that you can, you can see. But you have to focus nodes become good at something, I think, and you have to kind of specialise in that thing.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  39:00  
Yeah. It's hard. Definitely. Like I think for me, Twitter is also the way I learned about stuff. And maybe I mean, Hacker News as well. It's good morning. I

Antony  39:13  
read that. I probably should.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  39:15  
Yeah, hacker Hacker News is awesome. I love Hacker News.

David Parker  39:19  
It's about 80% of my attention Hacker News does.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  39:22  
Wow. Yeah. It's really nice.

Antony  39:25  
So you could you either get a balanced opinion there or you get sort of what people call it really bad names, right? They call it trash and stuff has kind of like a split mindsets on what hacking is actually is or what it what it brings. Yeah.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  39:39  
You'll have to be critical. Like with everything right?

Antony  39:43  
Yeah, yeah, especially. What about you, Shawn? Is your aren't for everything.

Shawn  39:51  
I dabble probably too much. I actually I run my own discord for my book. So, you know, I spend a lot of time in their QA curating Oh, yeah, yeah, I spent a lot of time curating, I guess information and continuing updates for my community members. I'm a little bit into this fault discord as well. I guess I do a lot of my learning through podcasts. So I listened to a lot of what's going on and try to keep tabs. So I'm an ideal customer for, for this genetic, because I am. But I'm also trying to, I guess, you know, I think there's, there's there's no end to how much you can consume. And you need to be more intentional about what you consume. And the best stuff you should try to consume repeatedly instead of, you know, always looking for the new thing. And I think, to me that the Lindy effect is something I think a lot about, like things that have been around things that have been relevant for a while will likely continue to be relevant. And you're the sum total of your knowledge is basically the amount of still relevant things that are, you know, in your head. So I've been I've been building this thing that called Lindy library, where it's basically things that have been things that are three years older that are still relevant today, which I think will likely be more relevant tomorrow. And I think I like that versus a lot of the ephemeral content that it's being produced today.

David Parker  41:15  
I say, Can I interject and ask what is your book about?

Shawn  41:18  
Oh, it's about it's career advice. For people going from junior developer to senior developer? I think that's a kind of underserved market. So

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  41:28  
not anymore.

Shawn  41:31  
Yeah, it's just one book. And I don't think I do a very good job of marketing it to be honest. But it's, it's doing fine. It's It was like, basically, my most popular essay is about this idea of learning in public. And so people really want more help on on how to do that. So I have like writing advice, like applying to cfps. I also have like tech strategy advice, like, people that I think developers don't think enough about betting on technologies and the business models of the companies that they work with. So I just give some basic intuition about that. In the book, we also study like career ladders. Yeah, sorry, I don't I don't mean to turn this into ad but like, it's a

David Parker  42:11  
very cool. I definitely had a very difficult time in that transition when I was going from junior to more intermediate and senior. So that's,

Shawn  42:19  
yeah, no one tells you this when you join the industry, you know, it's it's weird. So

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  42:25  
you're just supposed to know.

Shawn  42:28  
You pick it up, like hopefully you land in a good company with good mentors, but a lot of people don't. So,

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  42:33  
yeah, right.

Shawn  42:34  
They reach out there. So I feel sorry for them. They're like, they're like, Yeah, I don't have anyone else to talk about this with so I'm like, Alright, I'll be your friend.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  42:45  
All right. So let's do you guys have any other questions for Parker? Before we go to unpopular opinions?

Antony  42:55  
I I'm good. I'm gonna I'm asking some more outside of the podcast actually, when I think of them because it's interesting to me like I used to do a lot of this releasing small kind of projects that I built myself I guess, but yeah, the whole lack of marketing meant they were just literally for me and no one else and I think that I really like how listener it's looking I signed up earlier actually. I meant to mention and I'm really happy with it because I've got my own name, which is something I didn't get and clubhouse and I'm gutted about absolutely gutted about I like to have my name on everything and yeah so listen addict and they're Antony you can follow me You can you can follow other people and see which soon you add it

Unknown Speaker  43:39  
The nice thing is because

David Parker  43:40  
I don't do a tonne of marketing it should be easy for everyone to get their own name sorry now

Antony  43:46  
I mean, you know on Twitter right so it can work you know you could be the next foot so who knows all right yeah, so you so I just yeah, that's that's it I'm done. I think happy let's go to unpopular

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  43:59  
Yeah, and you're the only one who has one this week. I think

Antony  44:03  
I know shocking shocking. Come on people we can we can do better you try harder.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  44:08  
Let's hear it my

Antony  44:11  
my unpopular opinion is that I don't like their weight. Like what is it and a weight thing in in Svelte the the, like, the template

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  44:21  
or the template text for a

Antony  44:22  
tag? Yeah, that Yeah, I don't like it. I don't like it should be removed. It should be deleted from the codebase like comments and then a major version. I

David Parker  44:31  
only use it once all my code to be To be honest, I end up just doing it most things in the script section.

Antony  44:38  
I think I think you're doing the right thing. Yeah, you're on the right path. The thing is, right. So the reason I dislike it so much is because you know I've always believed that we follow this pattern, where we try to separate view logic from from logic logic, right view logic should just be rendering something in logic logic that can sit within the view layer. Traditionally write your Svelte is three things in one styling in HTML and code, but you should prepare the data and then iterate over it at max, because I can't see a way you can really avoid iterating over it. But the weight tag is is different. Like it really bugs a trend. You know, Svelte is a very simplistic language, it has very simplistic view. directors like this, it has a very simplistic view things. And the await tag is like an outlier. For me, it's, it's is doing too much, it's doing it in the wrong place. And you can wait things happily in your code and then get the code ready and or get a message ready or whatever. Putting in a template just feels wrong, just just really feels wrong. So yeah, I just I don't want it there.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  45:43  
It's so it's, it's you prefer to handle like your data fetching outside of the template tag, I

Antony  45:49  
suppose. I'm actually going to in the ideal world, I'd build something and show it right. And the closer I can get to that, the better, right?

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  45:59  
Yeah, I'm actually like, speaking of like, separating data, data handling stuff. I'm going to record like a, like a learn with the JSON type thing. But learn with Kevin next week with Luke Luke about like, using custom stores or rather just derived stores to to do data handling. So that's going to be interesting. Yeah, I guess that's one way to solve it.

Shawn  46:30  
So when Anthony told me about this await thing, I was actually very surprised. I was like, wait, what this is in Svelte, that that must mean that it's blessed. And then and then I realised. So actually, the whole impetus of the data fetching talk that I did on this felt society day that the first conference that we ever did for civil society, was explaining why and when not to use weight, or, or like, you know, the alternative to a weight, including building a custom store, so I can refer people to that video. It's on this fall society, YouTube for that,

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  47:03  
I'd completely forgotten about that. But yeah, that was really nice.

Shawn  47:07  
That one comment from Antony actually motivated the whole talk. And then I was just like, okay, let's just see where this goes. And there, it turns out, there's a lot of different ways to do data fetching, depending on what you want to do. So yeah, it's it's a fascinating topic. And maybe we should take out a weight, I don't know or put a caveat into depth.

Antony  47:26  
I look forward to your talk on removing comments from your code.

Shawn  47:30  
is wrong. That's just, it's just mistaken.

Antony  47:33  
I'm ready for it.

Shawn  47:35  
I haven't I haven't an unpopular opinion to share this not mine. If, if y'all want to go for it to comment on it. So Devin gave it that I thought I thought this was fire because he says, unpopular opinion. Yes, modules was a bad idea. It has caused half a decade of churn in the JS ecosystem, broken almost every tool, cause maintenance nightmares, for library authors, and for what a different syntax. Common JS was fine. It was just it was this unpopular opinion. And keep in mind, he's the author of parcel. So he knows he writes a bundler. He knows about static analysis. And so he's arguing that like, the typical response, so Okay, me as someone relatively new to JavaScript, I was just told that he has modules were better. And I just like, just take it on faith. Like, this is a big thing that has been in the works. And I once everything will be better once we might get to you as modules. And then here's this guy that this is like, Yeah, no, you know, we could do a lot of the same exact same things that we want to do as modules with common j. s. And, and now we have just like, years of just like, oh, you have to do like double transpiling or like, you know, and then your import systems are broken, like every everything's just kind of like in a weird flux state that we maybe didn't need. So I thought it was a very interesting, unpopular opinion. And I would just send people there, because there's a lot of discussion about this.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  48:51  
Yeah, it's it's I don't I don't know enough about these subjects to to really have an opinion. It just feels right to do the import syntax.

Antony  49:04  
Yeah, I have to agree. I don't know enough about ESM or anything else will come and yes, really, but I understand that, you know, eds is better for tree shaking, which is definitely a benefit. I just don't know whether that's because somebody made EDS and then a tree shakable or whether there's a fundamental problem with common JS that you can't tree shake it. I just don't know which it is.

Shawn  49:27  
I mean, so that's why that's why it's relevant to me that it comes from someone who who writes who makes a bundler because he's like, he's basically saying he can do the exact same tree shaking with common GS so we didn't need it

Antony  49:39  
Yeah, I mean, maybe I don't I don't think parcel prides itself on tree shaking specifically, though, right. And parcel prides itself on ease of use, no setup, just run it and you bundled kind of thing. And so I think that I would probably probably, you know, and I obviously massive bias, but I would, I would go with the kind of rich Harris opinion of esmf And nothing else. And again, I don't know if that's a fundamental thing in terms of how they devote the two things work or whether it's just, you know, I don't know. But I would say that probably among the rich Harris side of the argument for now, just because I think that the roll up is focused on the smallest possible bundle size, and that's very much more appealing to me. So

David Parker  50:28  
I don't I can't speak to it. Sorry. I'll listen to the talk. I don't need to read anything about this, though, because it sounds interesting. But to be honest, I, I'm used to you know, in Ruby land, you

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  50:37  
have Ruby gems, you know, you have one way.

David Parker  50:39  
Yeah, Python is, you know, everybody has their own way. So it's interesting. JavaScript is like, so many ways.

Shawn  50:45  
So this is the Python. This is the Python Three, two to three conversion of JavaScript. You know, it's, it's just taken way too long.

Unknown Speaker  50:54  
10 years later, 15

David Parker  50:54  
years later. I mean, it yeah,

Antony  50:58  
it probably is.

Shawn  50:59  
Yeah, pretty much.

David Parker  51:02  
I mean, I remember when NPM came out, it was at 2000 979 2000. hash. Yep.

Shawn  51:09  
So as the original email, I found the original email in the Google group

Unknown Speaker  51:12  
2009. So

Unknown Speaker  51:13  

David Parker  51:13  
only what 12 years ago. So great. Now we have 15 more years of catch up. I have a separate unpopular opinion I'll throw out. It's it's that generally speaking, you don't need the style tag. Within your Svelte files. 99% of my components do not. And that's specifically because I am using tailwind. I will throw this out there for people who are tailwind haters real quick. I know Java, or I know CSS better now than I've ever known it. Everyone seems to say this is it's the it's the thing for people who don't know CSS, it's actually the exact opposite. Every single class corresponds to one CSS thing. Whereas you know, when I was using bootstrap, I'd write it in you know, button. But I never had to inspect to see why it why it looked nice. Now I know everything looks nice, because I took the time to add that class. And so basically, none of my components have a style tag. The only one that really does is the audio player that I have because it's a custom audio player.

Antony  52:19  
Interesting. Yeah, I think I think actually, the tailwind thing somebody else who I have a lot of respect for actually very, very good coder, who I thought would be totally against me and tell when really speaks highly of it. So

David Parker  52:32  
what can I say? I don't think it's for everything and stuff. I it'll be very hard pressed to pull me away from it.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  52:40  
I mean, I'm using it for the new Svelte radio website that I'm currently having issues with because I'm, I can't figure out spell kit because there's, it's not really my fault. I know.

Antony  52:52  
We make it intensely difficult so that you know people that use it. That's why the

David Parker  52:57  
producer is sapper still.

Antony  52:59  
Yeah, I should probably I mean, all my stuff's

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  53:02  
still I should I should probably convert it to separate for now.

Antony  53:06  
Yeah. Just Just hold off for a bit

David Parker  53:08  
and separate isn't. By the way, whoever thinks sapper is dead, is still making, you know, pushing things to get GitHub, you can see it. So it's clearly I'm not worried about that.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  53:18  
Yeah, we had last night. In fact, we had we had been on last episode, right? Where we we talked about sapper and how it's specifically not that.

Antony  53:29  
So yeah. Like we only really we only rewrote our cell to about you know, few couple of weeks ago, to be honest. You know, we're at the point now just people need to upgrade and you know, we've we've been supporting it long enough. But yeah, there's got good longevity in Svelte stuff, new Svelte land. So we've got time for for a pair. Yes.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  53:50  
Yes, we do. We do. All right. So what's this random pick you have for us this weekend?

Antony  53:58  
Is there ever no random pick? So my random pick is a can opener. Now for those who can see the podcast, which is not the audience sadly, it's a tiny little can opener. It's called an indulgent Nugent, super kin. It's actually from France. And you know can openers there's all sorts of levels of crap for can openers. They're all rubbish. You occasionally find a good one and my favourite one to this point was a basic cheapy supermarket. You know, basic can opener. I found this on Amazon. This this notion super Kim is expensive for a can opener. But this thing opens a can perfectly so you stick it on the side, you start to turn and it pulls itself into the rim. Then cuts the rim but as it does it sort of what I come with the word is but it makes little dents in it so it's not sharp. So when you pull that catalogue out, it's not sharp. It's not going to cut you. You go around the can it doesn't slip it doesn't ever get hard to cut it. Very smooth action when you finish you just turn it the other way just past the turn and it will remove itself from the cam and becoming you know in your hand. It's like man like man this thing is tiny. It is like magic this thing is tiny this thing is probably like I don't know three centimetres like an inch and a bit square. You know even cute because of the handles stuff. It's just it's just great. So you're operating on you know, I know you said you have cats that's why you have well it's because they know we did we didn't fit him we feed him pouch food actually but but now we really liked tuna so we have a lot of tinned tuna and it's just every time it pains me opening candles just we had this very pretty, very posh can opener and it was just rubbish. It got blunter and blunter and it would lose the grip and then it would after you put it back on and once you've lost the grip and a can opener and you try and go with the same bit it won't grip and it won't cut the notch and then you've got a knife you're trying to stamp the top off so yeah, can it can open is way more important than then I thought it would be but I love this one. This is brilliant. So yeah, I'm happy with this

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  56:04  
in the show notes so

Antony  56:06  
stick in the show notes

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  56:07  
S ean Do you have a pic today

Shawn  56:07  
there's a I haven't come back to me any any think of what

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  56:17  
Yeah, yeah, sure. So my pick this week is the the Bitcoin lightning network so I've been I've been super interested in playing around with Bitcoin and the Bitcoin lightning network makes all these these like problems with with the amount of transactions per second go away so so it's not really an issue anymore, which is cool. And it's just it just feels awesome to like send money across the world in like seconds without anyone like telling you you can or can't do it. Cool feeling

Antony  56:53  
this is the only way that Bitcoin becomes a reasonable currencies is a lightning network.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  56:57  
Oh, definitely. Kevin, I

David Parker  56:59  
don't want to change the subject completely. I'm not a shill But are you familiar with nano?

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  57:07  
I heard about it. 

David Parker  57:09  
Okay. It it to me seems infinitely better than anything Bitcoin can or will put out just because of no tech debt basically. And how it was created to begin with in terms of being a currency versus a store of value which I feel like Bitcoin. Yeah,

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  57:24  
I think I think so. Yeah, but I think it's just like the network effect of Bitcoin makes it the thing that's gonna win if that makes sense. I don't know.

Antony  57:34  
I don't think it's gonna win. I don't think anything's going to end Bitcoin. I think Bitcoin is the React of cryptocurrency. Right? There's there's an opinion really.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  57:45  
All right. Let's have a cryptocurrency discussion another time.

Shawn  57:52  
No, but I'm actually pretty proud that like, we actually talked about it instead of completely ignoring that it's a thing that we talked about Bitcoin, like in May of last year, and it clearly became a big topic. Oh, okay. So my pick is three j s journey dot XYZ. So it's by Bruno's Bruno Simon, who has his his personal site went pretty viral last year, because it's basically shows you the amazing things you can do with three j. s. And now he's released a course that's only like, I think it's like 79 bucks. And he's just teaching you everything in it. He knows it. It's really well designed. If you ever wanted to learn, like, you know, if you ever get tired of rendering boxes on the screen, this is you want to go 3d. I think this is a great way to do it. All right.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  58:40  
I have a pic. Parker, do

David Parker  58:42  
you have a I have a pic. But I have a quick quick comment to that. I haven't seen that three JS thing. I will check that out. I'm going to do a plug before I do pick on my YouTube channel. I have I think over 100 Web GL videos tutorials. So if you want to learn what three GS is doing underneath will actually rip apart three j s. But in general, how does Web GL work? I have a lot of tutorials on how to do interesting 3d things. If you are going to build something for real, I highly recommend three GS rather than going for that all because it is a lot of work and overhead. Otherwise, there's a reason three JS exist. Anyway, my pick up somewhat thematically with Anthony's was actually in the kitchen as well. I'm not going to go grab it. It's just we have an espresso machine. And since COVID has started it is a saving grace. So just a few 100 bucks. I'm not it's not a two or $3,000 crazy Italian wine or something. But just having a nice espresso machine at home. makes life so much better.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  59:44  
Yeah. Fair enough. It's personal. It's nice. All right. And I think that's it. Thank you for joining us today and talking about listen addict and all the other stuff we we talked about us producer and

Shawn  59:58  
yeah, thanks for joining

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  1:00:00  
Thanks to all the listeners, we'll talk to you guys in a couple of weeks ago, yeah,

David Parker  1:00:06  
thank you for having me. This is great. You guys are fun.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  1:00:11  
Thank you everyone. Bye bye bye

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