i dont agree with the premise of the question, but fwiw my list is in the blogpost. here is a summary.
hiring
3rd party ecosystem (eg react-aria, material-ui, react-testing-library, redux, apollo, framer/framer motion, styled-components etc). Most companies, like AWS or Stripe, offer React SDKs before supporting any other framework.
react native
(in future) suspense/react flight
governance
first two points are sufficient for people to make tech choices already. yes i understand that these are not central to the framework. doesnt matter. early-to-late-majority adopters don't care. they care about ecosystem.
what matters is where does svelte have an indisputably clear advantage TODAY. i wrote the final P.S. with this message in mind. "Svelte for Sites" is as much a convenient lie as an adoption tactic as it is an inconvenient truth because of the abovementioned factors.
blogpost timing also doesnt matter. we both write with a more evergreen perspective and honest discussion is always a plus. but acknowledged that you disagree.
I agree with you on the React Native advantage. We’ll see if Svelte Native continues to mature.
I don’t yet understand the significance of Suspense and Flight, so I can’t comment on those.
It’s just a matter of time for the Svelte ecosystem to sufficiently catch up.
The hiring issue is minimized by the fact that Svelte has a low learning curve.
I think what triggers me most is the implication that Svelte should only be considered for sites. I’ve successfully used it for many apps. I don’t want developers to get the idea that Svelte is somehow lacking for real app development.
Personally I would choose Svelte but for big project of xx millions like in big corps I won't because actually hiring issue cannot be minimized : most already-heavily-invested-in-a-framework developers will just refuse to learn another (new) framework ;)
There are other reasons, I just pick the one argument you advance.
don't worry, I'm with you on the core capabilities of the framework. but ecosystem matters when building apps. plain and simple. part of what I'm doing here and with svelte society is laying the groundwork to address these issues, but it will take years. in the mean time, market to the usecase svelte wins hands down.
Can totally agree on the first two points: for me transitioning from jQuery/javascript to React engineer made the biggest impact on my pay-check, and a better engineer overall. Knowing and increasing the expertise in React gave the power to negotiate better salaries/contracts, work at better companies and overall made a huge positive change in my life. Beside all this, I am also able to start my micro company with my girlfriend about frontend consulting (website needs to be finished hehe..)
Developers sometimes should shift mentality non just thinking how to do something with a "framework" but also how will this impact my life outside of my career.
Ecosystem is big, with lot of resources, and the are tons of open source project where you can find a lot of useful code and patterns.
Before trying React I wanted to learn Vue, I learnt some this was soon after release of version 1.0 of Vue, and at the time could not include in any final production project.
With Svelte, I made a little dynamic form on a WordPress site to test it out, was pretty happy with the outcome, the issue I had there was: if the site has already jQuery should you add Svelte for just a component?
As the final judgment: from my standpoint I would switch to using Svelte for website only if I cannot achieve the desired performance with React/Preact, and if there is not already jQuery.
JQuery is still a lot heavier than svelte. I'm not sure if WordPress websites ship with JQuery by default or something, but if you can remove it then I'd explore replacing it with svelte. components are just much nicer to write with, tho that is a subjective opinion
Worpdress websites all ships with jQuery, and all the frontend depends on it, specially if there are using a template. Replacing jQuery on a Worpdress website will be a big headache because you need to replace everything of every additional plugin. Also if the client is using Woocommerce is something is not worth doing, in my opinion.
The only way to use Wordpress effectively with React/Svelte would be as an API endpoint or, let’s call it as a headless CMS.
The new Wordpress builder block is also made with React, so there is better tooling with React around Wordpress, at least at the moment.
At the end of the day what is important is regardless of what you use:
are you happy with the DX of the the tools you are using
is the client happy
are the clients users happy
clients and end users does not care what is working behind, they just care if it works well or not
My experience is the hiring & 3rd party ecosystem is unreasonably effective at convincing people who do not want to look deeper into the workflow & architectural distinctions when making a decision. They want to make a quick decision based on numbers & will ignore any other reasons for considering a decision.
In reality, hiring & 3rd party ecosystem don't have much of an impact, and may even have a negative impact, on the success of a project. Being able to hire any Tom, Dick, or Harry who just graduated the most popular Programmer Bootcamp floods the talent pool with formulaic, inexperienced, & unimaginative developers. I'm not saying new developers are necessarily low quality, just that low quality developers tend to leave the software development profession when they realize it's not their calling within a few years. Sadly, many of these low quality developers move into technical management and have an even bigger influence over tech decisions.
Better talent tends to self-congregate toward better tools to augment their talent. I would prefer to work with a smaller talent pool with better talent than a larger talent pool with diluted talent.
3rd party ecosystem means more dependencies of varying quality & maintenance burden.
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i dont agree with the premise of the question, but fwiw my list is in the blogpost. here is a summary.
first two points are sufficient for people to make tech choices already. yes i understand that these are not central to the framework. doesnt matter. early-to-late-majority adopters don't care. they care about ecosystem.
what matters is where does svelte have an indisputably clear advantage TODAY. i wrote the final P.S. with this message in mind. "Svelte for Sites" is as much a convenient lie as an adoption tactic as it is an inconvenient truth because of the abovementioned factors.
blogpost timing also doesnt matter. we both write with a more evergreen perspective and honest discussion is always a plus. but acknowledged that you disagree.
I agree with you on the React Native advantage. We’ll see if Svelte Native continues to mature.
I don’t yet understand the significance of Suspense and Flight, so I can’t comment on those.
It’s just a matter of time for the Svelte ecosystem to sufficiently catch up.
The hiring issue is minimized by the fact that Svelte has a low learning curve.
I think what triggers me most is the implication that Svelte should only be considered for sites. I’ve successfully used it for many apps. I don’t want developers to get the idea that Svelte is somehow lacking for real app development.
Personally I would choose Svelte but for big project of xx millions like in big corps I won't because actually hiring issue cannot be minimized : most already-heavily-invested-in-a-framework developers will just refuse to learn another (new) framework ;)
There are other reasons, I just pick the one argument you advance.
don't worry, I'm with you on the core capabilities of the framework. but ecosystem matters when building apps. plain and simple. part of what I'm doing here and with svelte society is laying the groundwork to address these issues, but it will take years. in the mean time, market to the usecase svelte wins hands down.
we agree more than we disagree.
React also has significantly more developed meta-frameworks.
yeah I count that as part of 3rd party ecosystem advantage
Can totally agree on the first two points: for me transitioning from jQuery/javascript to React engineer made the biggest impact on my pay-check, and a better engineer overall. Knowing and increasing the expertise in React gave the power to negotiate better salaries/contracts, work at better companies and overall made a huge positive change in my life. Beside all this, I am also able to start my micro company with my girlfriend about frontend consulting (website needs to be finished hehe..)
Developers sometimes should shift mentality non just thinking how to do something with a "framework" but also how will this impact my life outside of my career.
Ecosystem is big, with lot of resources, and the are tons of open source project where you can find a lot of useful code and patterns.
Before trying React I wanted to learn Vue, I learnt some this was soon after release of version 1.0 of Vue, and at the time could not include in any final production project.
With Svelte, I made a little dynamic form on a WordPress site to test it out, was pretty happy with the outcome, the issue I had there was: if the site has already jQuery should you add Svelte for just a component?
As the final judgment: from my standpoint I would switch to using Svelte for website only if I cannot achieve the desired performance with React/Preact, and if there is not already jQuery.
JQuery is still a lot heavier than svelte. I'm not sure if WordPress websites ship with JQuery by default or something, but if you can remove it then I'd explore replacing it with svelte. components are just much nicer to write with, tho that is a subjective opinion
Worpdress websites all ships with jQuery, and all the frontend depends on it, specially if there are using a template. Replacing jQuery on a Worpdress website will be a big headache because you need to replace everything of every additional plugin. Also if the client is using Woocommerce is something is not worth doing, in my opinion.
The only way to use Wordpress effectively with React/Svelte would be as an API endpoint or, let’s call it as a headless CMS.
The new Wordpress builder block is also made with React, so there is better tooling with React around Wordpress, at least at the moment.
At the end of the day what is important is regardless of what you use:
My experience is the hiring & 3rd party ecosystem is unreasonably effective at convincing people who do not want to look deeper into the workflow & architectural distinctions when making a decision. They want to make a quick decision based on numbers & will ignore any other reasons for considering a decision.
In reality, hiring & 3rd party ecosystem don't have much of an impact, and may even have a negative impact, on the success of a project. Being able to hire any Tom, Dick, or Harry who just graduated the most popular Programmer Bootcamp floods the talent pool with formulaic, inexperienced, & unimaginative developers. I'm not saying new developers are necessarily low quality, just that low quality developers tend to leave the software development profession when they realize it's not their calling within a few years. Sadly, many of these low quality developers move into technical management and have an even bigger influence over tech decisions.
Better talent tends to self-congregate toward better tools to augment their talent. I would prefer to work with a smaller talent pool with better talent than a larger talent pool with diluted talent.
3rd party ecosystem means more dependencies of varying quality & maintenance burden.