Here we go again, making the same mistake. I'm constantly reminded that every 5 years the amount of programmers in the world doubles, which means at any point, 50% of the industry has less than 5 years experience. Which is probably why we keep falling for stuff like Bun. But I've seen this movie before, and I know how it ends.
Part one - The story of Yarn
I see a lot of parallels between Yarn and Bun. Both targeted existing open source systems, and instead of actually contributing to them, just went off to create their own competing technology. Both sold themselves on being way faster. Both went in with the goal of splitting the ecosystem. Neither had good backwards compatibility support. And both announced that they were officially v1.0 and ready for production! ...while not actually supporting Windows (read: not actually remotely production ready).
So what happened to Yarn? Well, they came out with about a dozen cool new features that npm didn't have. And they were many times faster than npm. But then... only a year later, npm was already faster than Yarn. And another year later, Yarn would create a blog post explaining how it would ultimately be impossible for them to ever be faster than npm, due to the npm CLI being created by the same people in charge of the npm servers where the packages were stored and downloaded from. And that is still true to this day. In 2023, npm is still faster than Yarn. Its original big selling point.... has not been relevant for 5 years.
But what about the other features Yarn offered? With each passing year, more and more of them were implemented and released in npm, and as of today, all of the formerly-unique features Yarn offered, are built in to npm. Sure the implementations of the features are slightly different and for those that really care about the subtle nuance between how Yarn, Lerna, Turbo, and npm handle mono-repo management, you may prefer one over the other. But for the vast majority of use cases, the way npm implements these features is perfectly fine for almost all users.
Ah, but Bun is surely different? Right? I mean, it's written with ZIG! And ZIG! is super fast.... right? Eh, not really. It isn't doing anything magical, ultimately any performance you can achieve with it could be achieved with C++ (what Node.js is written in). So, just like with the story of old slow npm, once performance was prioritized, npm was able to go just as fast (faster even) than the competition. I can see a similar thing happening with Node. If given the proper attention, roughly equivalent speeds should be possible to the point where the differences are negligible. Well... kinda. I mean, we should probably acknowledge the fact that some of the benchmarks Bun brags about are cherry-picked or misrepresentative. So, even Bun doesn't live up to its own marketing hype. But you get the point.
Back to the parable of Yarn. When Yarn came out, it said it supported Windows. But none of the Facebook developers working on Yarn used Windows for their primary OS. So they quickly found out that Yarn, in fact did not run on that platform when released.
A short aside: Hi there, Primagen (the rest of you can skip this). Now I know, you've already made a snarky comment about Windows. But perhaps you should try to really value diversity in our society, and accept different ways of life. I mean, I get it. I totally do, Windows users make up a very very tiny minority of only 90% of computer users. But maybe... we should be respectful of that barely noticeable minority. :)
Back to the story.
So after about 2 weeks or so, they finally "fixed" it and Yarn could install and run on Windows.... kinda. I actually was never able to get Yarn to run reliably on Windows myself until they switched over to using corepack. Once you could install corepack via npm, and then install Yarn (or pnpm) on top of it, it was finally Windows compatible in a reliable, non-buggy, non-crashing, way. But by that point, Facebook had already dropped Yarn, and slowly, so did everyone else, it was already dying off by the time it ran on Windows.
I've still, to this day, never been able to get a Yarn mono-repo to run on Windows. I'm convinced it is not possible. Anyone who says they got it to work is lying to you. Sure, maybe in some Windows VM with nothing installed (not even Windows Updates), maybe someone got a Yarn monorepo to run on Windows, for a few glorious seconds. And maybe they also saw Sasquatch in the woods. Anything can happen. But on a real developer laptop, with random shit in the PATH, and Node and nvm-windows and volta and who knows what other random things installed, no, it doesn't work.
Okay, so Yarn came around, forced npm to get better, and then died. What's the problem? If that's all it did, then Yarn would have been great, but sadly it wasn't. npm was focused on developing and releasing the features the vast majority of users needed. But Yarn was focused on the features Facebook needed. Many of which were not important for 99% of people using npm. However, once people started using Yarn, npm had to repriortize what features they would develop and release. Instead of delivering higher value features that would be more relevant to more users, they had to quickly play catch up and add equivalent features to what Yarn was offering, as to avoid a split in the ecosystem. But Yarn marketed itself very well, and people bought into the hype. Even I was hyped for Yarn when it came out, until I found out it didn't actually run on Windows. But others didn't realize, or didn't care about that, and adopted it... and... and...
... And then Yarn became tribal. Stupid humans. Everything has to become tribal. And for several years there were thousands of README's created on projects that only told you the Yarn instructions for how to install the project. Confusing new developers. I can't tell you the amount of junior devs that have come to me asking for clarification on what this "Yarn thing" is, and if they need it. Thinking the project(s) they found would only work with Yarn. What a waste of everyone's time and mental space.
I always assumed someone at Facebook just found that convincing their boss to let them spend time adding features to an open source project they couldn't take credit for was a hard sell. It was probably easier for them to get approval to work on these features if they could use it for marketing for job recruitment or something. It always smelled of Not Invented Here syndrome.
Had Facebook just contributed to npm the features they wanted, then their features would have been released along side the ones npm was already working on. But instead it delayed the release of these other features by many years, resulting in duplicated efforts. And all for what? Yarn is basically dead at this point, except for a few niche edge cases. But I haven't seen a yarn add in a README in the past year or two. It's a sign of a past era.
Part two - Bun is actually much worse
Unlike Yarn, which offered speed and a dozen new features, Bun offers speed and like 3 new features. Let's briefly go over them.
- Macros - Used during a build process. They've been called a mistake by some. My biggest concern is that your build process is now stuck with Bun. You can't switch to something else unless it has an equivalent macro system, or you re-write your build process. You're opting into future tech debt.
-
bun.xAPIs - These are new API's that do literally the same thing the Node.js APIs do, "but faster". This is worse than the macros because now your code is a Bun virus. If Inpm installyour package and run it in Node, I'll getReferenceError: Bun is not definedwhen trying to use your library. Forcing all users of your library to adopt Bun. This is another forced split of the ecosystem, similar to what Yarn was doing, but much worse.- I could maybe see some wrapper library you import that checks if
bunexists and if so it uses the faster API and if not it falls back to Node. If Bun gets remotely popular I imagine this would be very common. But that's just one more dependency to maintain in your project, which sort of defeats the point of an "all in one" system that lets you skip having tooling dependencies if everyone that uses it has to install additional tooling libraries to make it easier to use.
- I could maybe see some wrapper library you import that checks if
- Meta-language support - Should Node.js have the Vue-Template-Compiler built in? It sounds absolutely insane to ask that. What about Markdown, or Sass, or CoffeeScript? Yeah, that would be pretty stupid for the main platform that everything is built on top of to just build in. It would feel very short-sighted.
- Meta-languages exist to fill in a gap in the original languages, they are by their nature impermanent and flexible. They're like adding really good suspension to your car as your drive over the potholes in the original language. Until the original language can come by and fill the potholes. There is a reason we don't use CoffeeScript anymore, most of the features it offered were added into the language in ES6. CSS has slowly added "good enough" equivalents to a few high value Sass features, and we've seen the first decline in Sass usage ever afterwards. But here we are with the worst templating system, JSX and the most contentious of all frontend tooling, TypeScript built in to Bun.
- TypeScript's usage plateaued around 2020 (at a little over a 3rd of the JS ecosystem having adopted it), and in the past year finally showing its first signs of decline as it is replaced with better, simpler alternatives like
eslint-plugin-jsdocs(get started here), and a potential comment based ES202X official type system that will likely lead to a rapid decline in the need for creating.tsfiles. With these potholes filled, TypeScript will need to either find new potholes to try to smooth out and justify it's existence, or accept that it's job is done and slowly fade away. Never actually dying, the same way CoffeeScript is still technically around, but ultimately being another sign of an older era. Like all the other once-useful technologies we've evolved beyond the utility of (LESS, Stylus, Sass, CoffeeScript, Yarn, Grunt, etc.). - Sass is a great example. It was at one point used by ~96% of frontend devs and had an over 90% satisfaction rate (State of CSS 2019). But has dropped in usage and satisfaction as the Meta-Language's API evolved to become much more complex in order to solve more complex problems. It is no longer focused on being the dead-simple tool for everyone, and is now focused on being a very advanced tool for people doing very advanced things. A much more niche use.
- I keep wondering what weird mishmash of technologies Bun would have been made out of it it came out in a previous year, and what weird legacy code they would be stuck maintaining today. If it came out in 2019 at the peak of Sass, used by basically everyone, it would totally make sense as a candidate to build into Bun right? But then what do you do when all of the Sass API's change and the old import system is completely deprecated? Normally you'd just
npm installthe version of Sass you need for your project, and pin the old version if that's what your code worked with and you don't want to upgrade. But if you were using Bun for this, and then you come back to it a few years later and now the project just won't build because the Sass version in Bun isn't compatible with the Sass code you wrote, you need to spend a day trying to figure out what version your code actually needs and manually installing the correct version of Sass to get your project to run again. That's why it would be insane to build a meta-language into Node.js, or by extension, Bun. But that's what they've done, and I forsee pain in the future for those that rely heavily on it instead of as a simple quick convenience.
That last one, built-in meta-languages, sort of leans into what Bun really is. It's just an abstraction layer for a bunch of technologies. It isn't an actual alternative, or competitor, it's literally the same thing, just already built in. Which sounds nice on paper, but ultimately is pretty bad.
Abstractions can be great, and simplify things. Let's look at Webpack for example. Webpack is... well just awful. NO ONE likes dealing with it. And that's why every JS Framework had to build an abstraction layer for it, because no wants to touch Webpack. Like the Angular-CLI, or Create-React-App, or Svelte-CLI, or the phenomenal Vue-CLI (which even has a GUI). We'll use Vue as the example, since it did the best job out of all of these abstractions. The vue.config.js file was a simple config that abstracted away all of the complexity of Webpack, while still giving you the exact same level of control if you needed it. It also reduced the amount of dependencies down from around 30-ish to like 3-ish. But then Vue's creator, Evan You, went and made Vite. And the vite.config.js was basically the same exact level of complexity as the vue.config.js except it didn't require them to maintain an entirely separate project (the Vue-CLI) to make it that way. Switching from Vue-CLI over to Vite, I ended up with the same amount of dependencies, and the same amount of config code. The end result is Vite is an abstraction layer for ESBuild that is as easy to use as the best abstraction layer for what it was replacing.
But Bun isn't doing that. It isn't taking something hard, and making a simpler abstraction for it. It's taking ESBuild and abstracting it just like how Vite is. It's not an improvement, it's basically the same thing. This is also the case for unit tests. Where they don't even pretend to offer something new, instead telling you to write your code as Jest or Vitest like normal, and they'll just hijack the imports and replace them with their own faster code under the hood.
Bun is just an abstraction layer on top of the tools we already have. Meaning it will always be behind the curve and can introduce additional bugs at that layer. Not ideal for such mission critical systems like installing dependencies, testing code, and building the code to be sent to production.
But we haven't even gotten to the two worst things Bun does, and the really scary parts.
Windows
I picked on Yarn for it's poor Windows support. But they look amazing compared to Bun. At least they kind of had Windows support when they released it. It only barely worked some of the time, but it was there. However, of the dozens of features that Bun brags about, not even one of them is supported on Windows when it was released as "version 1.0".
"The Windows build is highly experimental and not production-ready. Only the JavaScript runtime is enabled; the package manager, test runner, and bundler have been disabled. Performance is not optimized." - Official Bun 1.0 blog post
So imagine this, they just launched and are showing off all these cool features that they are excited about and want people to use. What is more likely to happen? As thousands of people start using it and giving feedback, finding bugs, requesting features, needing support, do you think they will:
A. Completely ignore all of the new users for the next year and focus solely on getting complete feature parity and making a polished, rock-solid, reliable, ultra-fast, Windows compatible build. Likely killing off any momentum they built from their initial hype-cycle, and maybe even losing them the VC funding they've been living off of.
B. Focus almost all of their very small team's efforts on keeping their existing user's happy by improving the Linux/OSX versions that already mostly work so that the product looks well maintained and can slowly gain adoption within those communities, while being virally spread by tribal developers intentionally creating non-portable code, knowing that it will not work in Node, or even on Windows.
I genuinely believe they have every intent on getting a Windows version up and working. I just do not believe for a second that a year after 1.0 is released that they will have feature parity in the Windows version. Maybe the Windows version will have feature parity with version 1.0 by then, but I doubt they will be stopping all work on the Linux version for a year. At that point the two flavors of Bun will be out of sync with each other, leading to confusion.
This leads us into the biggest missing feature of Bun.
There is no Bun Version Manager
Of all the tools they put into Bun, the one tool they didn't build in is a version manager. That is INSANE to me. I think it's actually insane that Node.js doesn't have a version manager built in. Let's break this down. On Node.js I have:
-
nvm- Which mostly works fine on linux/osx, but has some annoyances. -
nodist- Which is great, but only works on older versions of Windows. -
nvm-windows- For newer Windows versions, but barely works and is buggy as hell. -
volta- Which has the worst API of all of them, but is also the most stable and reliable and runs on all OS's, even really old versions of Windows.
Why do I have to know about these 4 tools? This is stupid. But what's considerably worse than having to deal with 4 tools that do the same thing is just not having any tool at all.
Node.js is WAY more focused on backwards compatibility than Bun is. But as time has gone on, even Node has deprecated parts of their API. Many times this is a result of the V8 engine itself deprecating features. Node.js is actually involved somewhat in the direction of V8 at this point, and even with having some level of input, it isn't possible for them to avoid all breaking changes and deprecations, leading to old Node.js code straight up not working on newer versions of Node.
So I don't believe for a second that Bun got everything right on the first try, and nothing about it will change over time, and all code you write in it, will always work forever. Especially since they are inheriting whatever deprecations will come with the Apple Webkit JS engine they are using.
What about a year from now when Bun 1.8 on Linux is out, but Windows just hits 1.0. Where I work, the devs on my team use different OS's (Linux, OSX, Windows). If we can't freely switch between versions of bun, then our Linux user's won't be able to downgrade to version 1.0 so we are all working with the same features (generously assuming a Windows version is released by then).
We as web developers used Grunt for our build tooling. Then Gulp came out and made the process simpler and we switched over to it. Then Gulp 4 came out and completely changed the API and no one wanted to deal with that so we switched to npm scripts for our basic build automation. But then we wanted actual bundling abilities and tree shaking. So we, as an entire JS community, switched to Webpack (or more accurately, abstractions on top of it). But Webpack was slow and annoying, so when Vite came out we all switched over to it.
But ya know what? I'm not in love with Vite. Is it the best thing right now? Yeah it is. But there are things about it I wish were better. And over the coming years more and more of those things will be identified and someone will inevitably make a new tool that is better than Vite, and I will happily switch to it. Not because I like changing tooling, but because from a practical stand point it will be better, and I will see the value in it and switch. That's it.
Even if you think "nope, there is nothing left to do with our tooling, we've perfected minification". Do you think we have perfected everything on the web? What features of the web exist today that did not 10 years ago? What if, hypothetically, 10 years from now we finally have something in the browser that replaces Web Components and doesn't suck? Won't we need some form of new build tooling to transform our code and take advantage of these native features? Just like we have today? As networks and internet protocols change and improve, how we optimize our bundles for them will change too. The web has always changed and evolved. It's never stopped. It will continue to change, and our tooling will continue to react to those changes.
That will also be the case with everything that Bun is abstracting. When does it decide to drop its ESBuild abstraction and switch to whatever that new thing will be? What if it switches too soon, and the community goes with something else, and it needs to switch again? There's only so much you can do to guard against API changes for your end users. If all of Bun's users need to maintain a bunch of ESBuild plugins to work with Bun, and then ESBuild is removed from under the hood and replaced, then those users are stuck on the old Bun version.
What happens when you use Bun to handle your build AND also your core JS runtime AND your testing tools. Then Bun does a major breaking change to one of those systems requiring a lot of tech debt to update your codebase to be able to switch over. Maybe your tests all need upgraded to work with the new system (I've done 3 major test refactors in my work codebase, the longest taking ~6 months to complete, this stuff happens). It could take months, maybe even a full year to upgrade all your code. And in the mean time you're stuck on the old version of Bun until everything works with the new version. BUT OH NO! A big security issue is found in the JS Runtime. So you need to update the JS Runtime, but you can't do that because your JS Runtime and your build tool and your testing tool are all the same. Until your major test refactor is complete, your code is vulnerable. In some industries you are required to address security issues in a certain window of time. Bun is a no-go for those folks.
There are ways for them to deal with this, like shipping multiple build tools, or testing tools, and letting you switch to the new one or old one via a CLI argument. But how long do they support multiple alternative tools being built in? Can they afford to support all of them?
With all the various abstractions for tools they have built in to Bun, it is only a matter of time until the glue holding it all together becomes too much to manage. Node, npm, Jest, Vite, etc. These are all large and very complex problem spaces each tool is separately solving. Even Vitest, under the hood is like 80% shared code with Jest, and just trying to handle the other 20% is a major effort.
What happens when JavaScript Shadow Realms are released? Vitest is already planning on adopting Shadow Realms as a way to isolate JavaScript tests without having to spin up new Node processes. If my Vitest code is reliant on running in this isolation mode and Bun decides to hijack my imports instead of using the actual Vitest imports suddenly my tests could start randomly failing and there won't be anything I can do about it without removing Bun from the equation until they can update their code under the hood to use Shadow Realms. But what if realms are added into V8, but then Apple drags their feet on adding support into Safari for several years (they do that a lot). There's literally nothing Bun could do in that scenario other then make their own internal native implementation of shadow realms until the feature is built in to Webkit. Which would be a pretty major undertaking and not a very scalable solution long term for other similar problems that come up.
All of these reasons and more are why Bun Version Management is so important. And why having so many tools combined into one isn't as nice as it sounds on paper.
Part Three - Random thoughts
- If Bun came out in 2012, it would have had Grunt built in.
- If Bun came out in 2014, it would have had Gulp built in.
- If Bun came out in 2016, it would have had Webpack built in.
- If Bun came out in 2018, it would have had Rollup built in.
- If Bun came out in 2020, it would have had ESBuild built in.
- What will happen in 2026?
- Back in 2014 Meteor JS came out and promised to do everything in one frontend/backend framework. It would handle websockets for you, and do reactive updating of the DOM and assume backend success but automatically rollback the UI if the request failed, to make the UI feel real fast and snappy. It let you have multiple people interacting with content on the same page in real time. And all you had to do was use their all-in-one CLI to run your project locally and deploy it to a free online test bed using your own custom project name.
- In 2023 I tried to run my 2014 Meteor project again and the version of the CLI that is compatible with the project doesn't exist any more and the project cannot be ran locally or deployed without completely re-writing the entire project to the latest version of Meteor. All documentation for the 2014 version is just gone.
- I have seen this movie before, and I know how it ends.
Part Four - Final thoughts
I've been very hard on Bun in this post, not because it sucks, but because it's almost good. And people will be excited to try it out and not realize all the downsides. Again, just like with Yarn, I was pretty hyped for Bun too. But I've since tempered my excitement and looked at it from a practical, and historical, standpoint.
If Bun actually did everything it claimed, then I would 100% be on board. But the non-portable code, the complete lack of Windows support, and some of the shortsighted choices they've made bring me back to reality.
I hope these critiques will lead to improvements in Bun. I hope that this thought process will allow others to look at Bun from a more cautious and thoughtful perspective. I hope these tales of Yarn and Meteor will allow us as a community to learn from our past.
Part Five - My predictions for the future
- Most of the projects Bun picked on will get performance improvements over the next year or so and tighten the gap between them and Bun.
- You will start seeing more and more repos that mention Bun in their README's, maybe exclusively.
- All developers that quit their first dev job after 6 months to become a YouTube Coding Influencer will make a "BUN IS THE FUTURE OMG" video with this thumbnail. In the hope that it will trick people into watching their 12 part tutorial series on Bun. Like & Subscribe.
- We have not perfected our tools yet. As we continue to evolve and invent newer and better options Bun will struggle to keep up and people will slowly use it less as they get impatient and are willing to just install a dependency if it means a better, more practical solution to their problems than what they had.
- Bun will probably be around for about 5 years. That seems to be the life span for most similar tooling.
- Bun will eventually have really really great Windows support... probably right as people stop using it.
- For some reason Bun never adds in a version manager and instead 4 competing options show up all sucking in different ways.
- The year is 20XX and we have finally converted the last CJS Node Module to ESM. This was only possible after humanity finally gave in and let the AI take over. Was it worth it?
- Joe Biden will get a second term, but like, no one is really happy about it.
- It turns out that Yarn guy really did see Sasquatch. Now I feel bad for making fun of him. Honestly, Harry and the Hendersons may be worth a rewatch.
- Vue is still better than everything else, but people will just use whatever the youtube coders said was the hot new thing because if it wasn't, why would they have made 20 tutorial videos about it?
- They're going to remake Breaking Bad and it won't be very good.
- Someone in Primagen's chat is actually right about something for the first time ever. Did you know he works at Netflix?
Top comments (117)
I don't know about all the points made in this post.
Bun is not the solution to everything, but the speed benefits it give to scenarios like a replacement to jest are well worth it for me and my team. I love that fact that is a set of tools that you don't NEED to buy fully into.
Regarding No Version Manager, I don't believe it is a priority to built a version manager when version 1 is only 1 week old, I think that would probably be more useful later on. I believe they're being pragmatic and releasing something usable that is stable. It's probably better than delaying a stable release with slightly more feature by 6 months.
Otherwise great article and I look forward to coming back here and seeing how many of your predictions come true, especially the Breaking Bad part.
Keep up the good writing! I enjoyed this and just wanted to mention my thoughts on some of the points here :) I do hope (and believe) that some of the things that Bun brings to the table does make it's way back to improving NodeJS.
The smaller the dosage you use Bun, the lower the risk. If you go all in, and use every feature it offers exclusively, then you are at high risk for running into the pain points outlined in this article. If you are able to replace a feature Bun offers with a different approach in a reasonable amount of time, and be back to normal, then I think it's totally valid to adopt it for that use. I hope you and your team get some value out of Bun and don't run into any of the problems I'm worried about.
That's a very mature point.
Yeah in our specific case we've given it a shot to replace jest and it was as simple as a plug and play, it works pretty much exactly the (except it's quicker) and we haven't had to change any of our existing tests. The only difference of using Bun has been that we don't need use all the config for setting up jest that we had before. For now we'll keep the Jest config in-case we try to revert.
I totally agree with you.
I would just add that if, according to this article, it took NPM 5 years to catch up with Yarn, probably it would have taken 10 year to achieve the same progress if yarn was not introduced. I would say the same thing for Node.js even if some day catches up with Bun.
IMHO, In overall, competition is the driving force behind remarkable innovations and progress and these diverging paths from the mainstream often bring significant value and who knows, It might become the main stream itself.
Speaking of Tailwind, I was one of those developers that thought, it was the worst thing that had happened to web development, until I " suppressed the urge to retch" it and tried it. Now I can not go back to writing vanilla CSS.
i'd imagine the idea is that the Yarn devs should've contributed those features to NPM directly. that said, idk how contributor-friendly the NPM team is. some core teams, like PHP Core, sort of meander until they're pushed by the threat of competing projects (in PHP they had to contend with Hack, which was much faster and had some nice features PHP lacked, and PHP quickly addressed these in PHP 7 which kept most PHP devs around; Hack now looks like a different language to a degree, afaik is only useful to Facebook). sometimes the threat of splitting the ecosystem is a good thing, but shouldn't be wielded as a first option. and in defense of core teams, having companies like Facebook threaten to split your ecosystem if they don't get their super specific features/changes (that sometimes don't benefit anybody but them) is also pretty gross so i don't always disagree with telling them where to stick it.
Definitely an interesting article, and @barrymichaeldoyle I definitely agree that while Bun isn't the end-all-be-all, it certainly offers an excellent (and fast!) alternative for devs to utilize instead of the vast web of Node components.
I've recently started building a number of project updates with Bun as a drop in and the reduction of time to test and build has been pretty darn impressive! Granted, most of these projects aren't exactly "huge"....even still, it's extremely noticeable how much quicker the process is regardless of the overall project complexity!
Nodejs has a fast built in test runner.
But it does not work with typescript code.
If you have to compile your code first -> its like 10x slower instead.
Ah right, that makes sense why the bun hype is there. Yeah I'm pretty much all in on TypeScript so I guess that puts bun right back up there for my test runner of choice :)
You have identified a problem with TypeScript, not with Node. TS has always been excruciatingly slow. Many are now switching over to JSDocs for type management. It has many benefits over the TS Language while still being completely compatible with the TS Engine and
tsc. However there is no build or runtime cost. You can do enforcement of keeping your JSDoc comments up-to-date via a simple linting plugin. If you don't want to configure all the linting rules yourself, this is the easiest 2 step process to get started github.com/tjw-lint/eslint-config-...Bun still seems like a more elegant solution to my TypeScript problem though.
I'm personally not a big fan of JSDocs as a replacement for TypeScript in its current state.
How fast is it compared to bun and how much config setup does it require to run alongside things like RTL?
I saw a comparison in this video.
I can't find on Bun's site that they use WebKit engine. I see:
My personal opinion is that Bun is trying to build too many things around it, like TypeScript. Which effectively leads to so many distractions instead of focusing on core, stability, and performance. It will be a huge ballon that will eat memory with probably 70% of features not used. There will be quantity over quality. At the moment of writing this comment, there are 1590 open issues and 1703 closed.
At this rate of bug growth, Bun will spend more and more time fighting bugs rather than stability and performance. Let's assume that it takes 4 hours to fix each bug (extremely optimistic), that's already 6360 hours spent just on fixing bugs. Let's keep counting, 8 hours a day, that's 795 days! 795 / 365 gives you over 2 years of work just to fix 1590 bugs!
And it will keep growing, as implementing too many features is just a consequence of that.
To the whole great post, I'd also add the overhyped Tailwind, which literally does nothing new and makes the whole development even worse. See example:
flex transition-all dark:bg-darkNight bg-white duration-1000 relative 4xl:max-w-11xl 4xl:mx-auto 4xl:shadow-xl 4xl:rounded dark:shadow-4xlvs.
chat-messageTailwind complicated development 10 times by moving from logical to illogical order. What's wrong with reusable classes? What's wrong with named CSS classes? Instead of first looking at named classes to understand what follows, the engineer now needs to spend time decrypting the intention of the implementation behind all CSS classes. It should be the opposite: Read the name of the class. Interested? Dive into implementation details. Not interested? Keep searching. That approach allows you to quickly scan the app logic without diving into implementation.
To quote trac.webkit.org/wiki/JavaScriptCore
@mellen Thank you!
You can always compose your own additional css class from tailwind css utility classes. What’s wrong with that approach which can be applied to such cases with classes that are too long/unreadable?
This is outside of the scope of this article. However, I would note that Tailwind's create (Adam Wathan) has specifically said that what you are advising is an anti-pattern and that
@applywas only added to trick people into using Tailwind that did not like their HTML being littered with dozens of classes. His words, not mine. Source@thejaredwilcurt
That's for sure. However, I'd really love to hear what kind of problems Tailwind resolves that existed before.
If your company was using a css framework before, tailwind is solving that.
pb-3in bootstrap... what does the 3 mean? It means whatever your default size is. But what if you want something bigger?pb-4? But that's too big.Tailwind solves a lot of that.
I thing it should not be that much treated as the only way. If you need couple of composes classes - world will not break. You definitely don’t need to make own class for each element in the tree - it’s for sure is not as it supposed to be done. But just few classes for very long class names - it’s fine I think.
Because this Tailwind is more understandable?
h-screen xl:min-w-282pxl xl:w-260pxl hidden xl:block overflow-y-hidden dark:bg-darkNight dark:border-matteGray font-ubuntuI love Tailwind and SASS, but they have trade-offs. Tailwind offers scalability and maintainability, reducing the complexity of naming conventions.
If your project doesn't scale, then Tailwind may have more cons than pros, as it truly shines when maintaining large codebases with specific needs like SSR or performance.
I understand that it can be cumbersome and verbose to write styles like this, but using them at the right moment can be a lifesaver.
I think it's really important to know and experiment about everything that you can to know what these cons/pros are and understand what it's the right tool for the job.
@pablets Would you mind to explain what kinds of problems exactly does Tailwind solve?
The "scalability and maintainability, reducing the complexity of naming conventions" doesn't explain the issue and what kind of solution was invented by Tailwind to resolve it.
Is this
bg-white dark:bg-darkNight dark:border-matteGray border-b border-grayLighter w-full flex justify-between px-2 py-3 items-center xl:hidden fixed top-0 z-20called a "reducing the complexity of naming conventions"? If so, how so?Can you give an example of scalability challenges and how Tailwind resolves them?
I'd appreciate it.
@andrzej_kowal
Composing your own CSS class was available long before Tailwind was born. My primary question is: what kind of problems does Tailwind resolve that weren't resolved before?
By making styling more visible and flexible, and limiting cognitive load. When working with a massive component-based SaaS codebase and an immature, unstable design system, I want to see styles in the DOM template of the component where they’re being applied without having to reference several different CSS files written by different authors at different times all applying globally what they thought could be taken for granted finding myself in CSS cascade hell trying to implement something new without breaking existing legacy UIs or take on the complexity of the entire system.
Pure CSS is beautiful and I can’t wait to ditch Tailwind… later, when the design system is mature and my UI is all nice, clean components, and what a joy it will be (and so easy too) to replace all of those tailwind classes with clean, structured CSS. But honestly, if I never get there, Tailwind will be just fine.
@stephenhebert Tailwind does not resolve the problem you described. Frameworks like Angular, Vue, and React do. You can encapsulate your styles within components. Even Web Components can be used today. Even using only Sass you still can structure code well.
By making hundred different small classes used within one element, it is extremely difficult to understand the semantic and expected behavior. The code should present the logic first. Implementation is important only when you want to dive into code changes, behaviour, or the like.
@stephenhebert , Tailwind does not decrease cognitive load. It does the exact opposite. I want to see less code, and more business.
Check this article from creator of TailwindCSS.
link.
If you guys would like to know what TailwindCSS actually do and why, it might be a good idea to get on their official website and read by yourself.
The idea behind Tailwind described by inventor isn't convenient to me. Let's move that discussion to some other relevant post.
I think you looked at this syntax
"bg-white dark:bg-darkNight dark:border-matteGray border-b border-grayLighter w-full flex justify-between px-2 py-3 items-center xl:hidden fixed top-0 z-20"and become a hater just because it looks ugly.But you forgot the benefit from it:
@ginkcode "All of these configs are very clear, when you get the hang of it you can imagine or figure out how the element looks like exactly at the same time writing html code. "
That's the most unneeded "feature." You should not read the code to determine the meaning and expected action of a particular element. Those small classes are related to one (in general) case, and later, with the combination of all of them, they create a single element with its behavior. I don't see any advantages to having 20–30+ micro CSS classes and forcing the software engineer to read and analyse the code to find out what it is and how it behaves.
"And more important thing, IMHO, the visual and preciseness of those tw classes, it's defined right on that element and belongs to that element only."
No, they are shared classes. Anything you change in one class affects all places where it is used. Single classes, like margin or font weight, used alone might be applied to some specific cases, e.g., components used only in one place. Or you're adding modifications to some old code and you don't want to change the main element's CSS class, but rather just add one style.
"Everything will end up as a mess and very difficult to find out the reason."
Properly structured and organised Sass will make everything perfectly understandable, manageable, and easy to maintain. Using 20 or more microclasses makes the code very hard to understand and manage, unnecessarily increases the HTML size, and may, in some situations, also impact the performance.
You're talking about css shared classes. TW classes are different, I never think of any developer will ever try to override TW classes. They should be out of mind.
Anyway, if you prefer to work with Sass then that's your choice and no one is against that.
TW has proven its usefulness to the community and is well received by the developers. That's why it become so popular.
@ginkcode
Aren't TW classes shared? Is overriding an unnecessary and never wanted need?
Sass has nothing to do with TW. Sass organising your styles and working on them.
Popularity doesn't mean something is good. This has never been the case.
I'd be happy if you could provide a table with 2 columns: [Challange] [How TW resolved it] in the below post.
I'd propose to move topic-related discussion to: dev.to/cezarytomczyk/tailwind-over...
The entire idea of calling it a "drop-in replacement" is ludicrous. It just isn't, if you're forcing me to change my imports. Perfect example: I have an npm module that's a wrapper around better-sqlite3. I've been developing it for years, it has 5+ million downloads, and it works great.
Someone opened an issue asking that I "add bun compatibility" which of course is idiotic : if Bun is a drop-in replacement, why the hell would I need to change anything? So when I said "no, let them be compatible, I have no intention of doing this sort of development effort" the person just forked my repo and made a bun-compatible version by switching the imports to bun:sqlite.
Now you might ask, why do I not feel like doing development effort here? Simply put, I'm on Windows, and I'm not about to install a different operating system (Virtualized or otherwise) just to make a supposed drop-in replacement actually work when dropped in. So... nah. No thanks, Bun. I'm good.
Thanks for this real-world anecdote. There are many other people in the comments claiming Windows support isn't worth Bun's time, but ultimately it will be the reason why they won't be able to overtake the much more mature, stable, and fully cross-platform alternatives.
I spend extra time making sure all of my libraries run the same on all platforms. Or include all platform specific options for those types of cases. I'm very proud of how most of the Node ecosystem has done the same. All platforms being treated equally.
Having been around for a long time, I find it especially funny how the Linux community used to complain in the 90's and 2000's about no one taking them seriously and supporting them. Now they are on the opposite end of that table and arguing against adding support for Windows. They didn't want all OS's to be treated equally, they just wanted stuff to work for them. Which is the same thing they complained about of other non-Linux users. Fascinating, and sad.
I foresee a lot of libraries getting
if (bun) {} else {}added to them. I don't think that's a terrible thing, in general, it's much better than the alternative of only supporting Bun. However, like with any project, the larger it gets, the more effort will be required in maintaining this additional feature (Bun support). And at some point, when Bun starts to die off, they'll need to do a major bump release to convey deprecating support for Bun. It's a choice people can make, to offer additional support in the short term and opt-in to future tech-debt.The statement that C++(Node), Rust(Deno), and Zig(Bun) can all reach the same level of performance is very accurate.
This is because they are all compiled to the same LLVM backend, which is a compiler framework for C and C++.
einventing the wheel is often worse than the existing wheel that is understood and maintained by many users.
This article is very insightful, but it's a shame that I, who am not a native English speaker, can't appreciate the many jokes quoted in the article.
I really struggle to see the relation between production ready and Windows as target ... software developers are rarely on Windows (or let's say these are less frequent) and Windows has WSL which Bun supported for a long time. With this logic
curlis not production ready because it's not on Windows, or same goes for anything else Linux or macOS specific ... this argument is spread through the whole post and makes it less interesting imho, as you wrote many other interesting thoughts around the Windows thing but, if there's one thing that's not mentioned at all, is that NodeJS and the v8 team in general, if not the Web as a whole, really needed a fresh new take and look around a different engine (JSC, they always laughed at me in NodeJS or TC39 discussions when I've mentioned JSC as target for my JS, among GJS or others ...), a cut-the-crap forever ongoing discussion around ESM vs CJS (it "just works" (with a grain of salt) in Bun) and another cut-the-crap about standardizing JSX syntax in JS, something I've proposed to TC39 in a better and agnostic fashion but nobody is paying attention around this topic.Competition, the one you are against, is one of the reason npm became faster ... there were better alternatives that helped shaking/focusing the main/original project ... and same is the butterfly effect of Bun ... it's about the time some team realizes stuff can happen and such stuff can move pretty fast too ... and this is good!
P.S. I worked at NOKIA, we all know that story ... if teams and projects are really convinced nothing can replace them or make them obsolete and old, things move slowly, if these don't stale entirely, and nobody wins; thanks gosh there's competition and specially in these days were the fragmentation about everything around Web development is really something concerning, rather than being just "freedom of choice".
That’s such a relief to see a reasonable contrarian opinion around finally, thanks 👏
Great article but there was a point in your article -
The reason why Bun appears faster than Node.js in some cases is because Bun leverages Safari's WebKit engine. This engine, optimized for web-related tasks and JavaScript execution, can indeed make a substantial difference in performance compared to Node.js, which relies on the V8 engine.
It's fascinating how the choice of a runtime engine can impact performance, and Bun's utilization of WebKit certainly plays a role in its speed.
Yes it does! I skipped over that, but it's a very valid point. I'm actually most excited about their usage of Webkit rather than V8. There was a point where Microsoft had made a version of Node.js based on Chakra (Internet Explorer/Edge's JS Engine) instead of V8. And had Edge not switched to being Chromium based they would have continued to maintain
node-chakracore. I was very interested then, as I am now with Bun, on what unique, weird niche things one engine will excel at over another. Overall though I think most of the speed differences come from unoptimized Node rather than V8 specifically. This can be seen by how Bun allows you to use Node's API for Filesystem stuff, but even using Bun/Webkit it is still slower than Bun's custom native API's.But we'll see. Again, excited to find what weird things Webkit is better for over V8 in this new context. It will be a better comparison if Node renews a focus on performance, which I assume they will in the coming year.
Is V8 not « optimized for web-related tasks and JavaScript execution» ?
Compared to webkit javascriptCore it is slow
JavascriptCore has a faster startup time, otherwise they benchmark similarly. V8 is a HIGHLY optimized JS engine. Both have pros and cons
Agree with most of this, except for your comments about TypeScript ...
I think TypeScript is clearly and undeniably thriving - there's almost no major JS based frontend or backend framework that I know of that does NOT offer excellent and prominent TS support ...
From what I can see it clearly has a great future ahead of it - prove me wrong :)
Yeah, I would love to see a source for "TypeScript's usage plateaued around 2020" because everything I can find indicates it's still one of the fastest growing languages.
I don't think it plateaued at all, I think it's more and more becoming the default, especially for new and somewhat bigger projects ... I don't know what metrics he looked at, maybe Github stars or something, but with regards to practical usage I think it's becoming ever more ubiquitous.
My bun journey in 3 steps:
pre v1.0 ... i simply tried it as replacement for pnpm ... and found It's support for -C/cwd lacking
as v1.0 came:
today i tried
bun installon a codebase with private (freely accessible) registry ... found out bun ignores .npmrc ... .bunfig.toml doesn't fit into all other conventions ... aaaand it then still ignores that private registryWhile searching a solution ... i weirdly came here ... and will be sticking with pnpm, which is quite perfect.
Thanks for the real-world usage summary. Sad to see even more of Bun is hype than I initially even assumed. Good luck!
"a potential comment based ES202X official type system that will likely lead to a rapid decline in the need for creating .ts files" isn't entirely on the money. I took a look at the TC39 proposal and the proposed syntax is TypeScript (not to mention authored by TypeScript team). So no one is wasting their time by practicing their syntax now, and when they want to convert they can just
tscto the standard syntax and still use Microsoft's software as a "linter".I'd say this was always the master plan of TypeScript.
On the other hand, Bun has no such thing; like you say, if you use "bun.x" APIs you might be locked in. Which is pernicious because they market themselves as a "drop-in replacement" but are not quite as good as TypeScript in this regard.
As someone who tried Yarn as soon as it came out, I found that it neither worked as advertised (offline mode did not work) nor were the developers very responsive to GitHub activity. My brother and I whipped up a PR for them which fixes a bug with offline mode, and we heard nothing from them for an entire month before they simply merged it without any comments. I was expecting them to at least complain to us that we didn't write any unit tests...
I still don't really understand why Yarn exists to this day. pnpm has existed for longer than Yarn and solves an actual problem that I care about: saving HDD space. When I have hundreds of different small projects on my HDD and they all need node_modules, pnpm is really great. Plus their developer always responded to me within 20 minutes of me opening an issue, which put it way over the top of Yarn in my opinion.
One thing I keep in mind with marketing: If it doesn't come from a country where it's illegal to lie to customers, you shouldn't believe any of it. Even from a country where it's illegal, you can expect some to try and get away with it, so just never believe marketing in general.
Great point 😂. But which countries has such laws?
France
Right. Just like how no one uses drugs in countries where drugs are illegal. It's just that easy.
Yes ,thank you for your input. Maybe next time lookup numbers (on drug offenses and relevant incarcerations) beforehand. No law is, sadly, infallible. You just need to enforce it.
Once they get caught red-handed, they mostly die or try rebranding and ultimately fail.
It‘s exactly like you said. Instead of contributing to close, the potholes, people tend to reinvent the whole thing. That’s just ridiculous.
I haven't tried Bun yet, but I'm excited for it not for the reasons you're mentioning, but for:
— it supports import and commonjs interchangeably
— it renders react to javascript natively and supports typescript natively
I love the concept of being able to do stuff like this without requiring build tools.
Anyway nice post and thanks for starting an interesting discussion.
Dealing with MJS/CJS is a pain. I'm more upset that Bun made that possible and Node hasn't. If there is one feature I would love to see Node.js steal from Bun it would be allowing intermixing
requireandimport. But until Node does, it's just one more non-portable coding practice that would bite you if you wanted to move away from Bun later, so as convenient as it is, I would be far too afraid to actually use it.JSX and TypeScript are Meta-Languages, and there is a large section on that in the post. For quick convenience it is nice, but for a real long term project there are many downsides to using Bun instead of a pinned, versioned, dependency.
All good points. I wish I could code like you can write.
I like HTML and its underlying robustness principle, but clean-code advocates might disagree.
Trying to run any 2014 project on another computer wasn't easy in 2014 and it didn't improve in 2015.
That will give them something to do and keep the advertising machinery going when watchers have lost interest AI and Web3.
Like "best viewed in Internet Explorer" or Netscape back in the day. Both browsers are obsolete now.
Thanks for your post! Hopefully saved me the time to try out Bun, but we'll see.
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