In this article, we will aim to understand why you should consider HTMX as a replacement for React next time you choose a tech stack for a web app....
For further actions, you may consider blocking this person and/or reporting abuse
Once upon a time there was : mavo.io from Lea Verou.
Nothing really new in this world
Juste for smiling...
Nice, never heard about that!
E un piacere :-)
So now my API will return this mixture of HTML, cool. what if I need to use the same API for a backend website, a mobile application and some third party companies use that API too?
This HTMX trend is one more thing that contribute to the JavaScript fatigue. more of the same.
You ain't goona need it
In short, imlementing features because you might need them in the future is bad, but if you need them right now, then go ahead and use API JSON. I am just presenting an alternative!
YAGNI feels at odd with "Design with change in mind".
You can keep the api still running and pass the results to the HTML that will be returned to the server. I guess you get what I'm saying here.
The question is how well it Integrates with existing frontend engines. The strict limits between a static page and an spa disappear more and more. Sometimes a great portion of a webapp is static while a certain area or page is very complex, state-driven and highly interactive.
This creates the situation that most of the time react is way too much for the static stuff but necessary for the complex stuff.
In such a scenario I would definitely try a hybrid setup with ssr+htmx for the static stuff but stateful react for the complex ones.
How well would that perform?
You are not limited in any way by HTMX, you can have react parts in your website, or web components or whatever. The only issue you can get is when a part of the DOM of a react component is updated by HTMX and the component is re-rendered, react will override those changes.
But you can easely overcome by not doing that and communicate between the two worlds using browser custom events.
You can definetly submit a react form using HTMX, it will work. You can have, for example, a form dialog modal rendered and managed by react, but when you submit it, have it submitted using HTMX!
But I might suggest that you give a look at alternatives like Alpine.js or Lit web components or Solid.js for a more lightweight approach for reactive scripting.
Thanks for the detailed and thorough response 👍
The shift from client side rendering back to mostly server side rendering is apparent of lately, but it is justified as from what I've experienced front-end frameworks like React were used way too much without a real need.
You're spot on on the complexity of front-end stacks increasing, its now even more complicated with SSR.
One thing I would add, for some of the problems you mentioned between front-end and backend teams, I wouldn't say its related to react or any other front-end framework, as the efficiency between the teams depends on the setup, usually its not a problem, as API contracts are defined beforehand, and the front-end team has Open API docs to generate all interfaces from.
Great read anyways!
I absolutely love HTMX! I am currently using it with Astro 3.0 and some hyperscript as well. With Astro I can use a mix of HTMX, React, Vue and a few other frameworks since it uses Vite for the build. With the OBB-SWAP I am able to update multiple DOM and make my components as interactive as needed with ease.
HTMX convert many interaction form JS to
hx-tag system. The casual webpage this system will pass work to server, which is really fine, but give extra works to server side programming or other words front end developer need to work much closer to backend developer collogues, what do you think?Of course I saw the potential in HTMX, but I think my React thinking is much closer to
qwiksolution, which is also give a good answer to minimalize the client size JS code size.Yes, I agree that HTMX tightens the link between back-end and front-end, what I would argue is that it's a desired outcome IMHO, as it will reduce the need of interface agreements and documentation. You can acutally spend those resources on implementing stuff that brings value to your users!
And for the server workload, it might be true, but when is the last time when you fetched only the data you needed from your API?
Most of the time you overfetch, you don't only fetch the user name and email to show it in the picklist, you fetch their profile, their employee profile, their employer data, their department, their department budget and maybe what they eat for luch yesterday 😄
With HTMX we are evolving. Just backwards. I hope the next boom will be for the plain HTML or some good old template engine
The problem is that the HTML and the browser API didn't evolved enough to allow native SPA like websites, but that started to chage with the new transition API developer.chrome.com/docs/web-plat...
As a frontend developer, this HTMX does not attract me even a little bit. It seems annoying to work with and I'm passing.
I had never heard of HTMX before. I'm going to try it.
Thank you for a very detailed article, by the way.
great content. ty
Great post, thank you so much!
No offense, but the reason react exists is because we found out through frameworks like angular that extending the html syntax compared to just using JavaScript syntax is a bad idea... Not only does it force developers to learn yet another syntax, it also means that you have to reinvent the wheel on every problem that was already previously resolved by JavaScript view libraries...
No offense, I had to.
But this is actually about using JS and overly complex FE frameworks all the time. Not everyone loves JS. Some of us would like to create a decent web app in his loved programming language.
Html is not a programming language though... I'm aware that there are many groups who are religiously against react or even JavaScript frameworks in general. Personally I don't really believe in forcing my religion on anyone. All I can say is, there's a reason why JavaScript frameworks were created and why they became popular. If you disagree with the reasons those frameworks exist, by all means, just use HTML. Why even invent HTMX? It is really just another JavaScript framework that uses a (not)HTML syntax, like angular JS.
Most of the Backend dev community not using JS often (me either). But they want to develop web UI-s efficiently (possibly in their programming language of choice). This is the best tool for that with a templating engine. Minimal simple abstraction and great performance due to hx-target and hx-swap.
As FE engineers wants to replace part of BE with Next.js for example.
BE engineers would love to replace some of the FE needs with HTMX. (+ hyperscript or AlpineJs)
More details here in this great interview with the creator of HTMX: Behind HTMX : Carson Gross
Aha, so that's what it is about. BE engineers feel threatened by NextJS and JS framework encroaching on "their" territory? My stance remains the same. Instead of being scared of change, why not research what makes these JavaScript frameworks so popular? There's a whole history and actually really valid reasons behind it :)
Nah, Javascript makes it just over-complicated now. We don't need to stick to javascript because there are a bunch of good programming languages. Javascript is just like a hammber of a metaphor "hammer and nails".
There are not that many languages in the browser.
What about DX?
React-Server-Components
HTMX + golang templates - seems like the best choice to skip React (for backend engineers)
How does HTMX allow to test components in isolation (storybook in React ecosystem)?
As a first argument, HTMX will help you reduce the amount of code from houndreds of thousends to only tens of thousends.
linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:ac...
And if you want to test, you can test it the same way you test JSON API, you call the endpoints and insepct the resulted HTML.
And about HMR, you don't have any build step. You can just refresh the page or have your backend technology of choice refresh it for you and you have your changes presented in the browser.
Still no HMR?
So you are okay to ignore improvements to developer experience (biggest advantage of react) ?
You are okay going back 20 years in time to how software was developed earlier?
I can remember 10-15 years ago how I used Java -> GWT (Ui lib + js) compiler to develop GUIs and I can tell you now that it sucks for business logic heavy, highly interactive web apps.
You want to see how a different color/font/padding looks like? You have to wait for full page reload and THEN still have to click through 3-5 elements to get to the same ui state to see how it looks. Repeat min 100x per day. It SUCKS
If you are a Java dev then Spring Boot has live reload with dev tools, which would mimic HMR of React.
Live Reload will never mimic HMR because you lose the local state in your Browser.
This is not important for low interactive (nearly static or single SSR rendered) sites but this is highly important for high interactive web apps.
Example: You open a dialog, type something into a form input to see if an error message shows up -> HMR reloads changes without your losing state (dialog keeps open, input retains value) while live reload throws everything away. With live reload you have to open the dialog again and type something in to the input again, repeat that 100x a day and you will start the value in HMR.
I mean, I was were, 15 years ago with SSR rendered/generated/transpired websites with Java -> GWT, I am not going back.
A most informative article. I am currently exploring the possibilities of htmx with Go server-side rendering. Just referenced this article on the Learning Go for Data Science site.
Thank you! I heard that go has great templating capabilities, I have to give it a try someday!
HTMX provides a fine grained update of page elements. In theory, this reduces the ammount of data to be served and should make your applications fast.
But what about latency on the web? Each request takes some time to be answered. What happens, if your connection is slow or not stable? We often see that fetch-requests may delay your page update. In HTMX, fetching little parts of your page is the backbone. Does this harm the user experience?
If you're app has to be usable offline and you have to keep track of state changes, it's outside of the scope HTMX (alone) solves.
Good point! One argument for HTMX are short response times, and I´m really curious whether this is actually achieved in everyday life. I would not like to wait for every second click because my line is busy...
I actually haven't seen much of a difference in response times, but I'm still in an early exploration phase with HTMX and only using it for private stuff.
Personally I feel it's a bit more geared towards projects that don't use JS/TS in the backend and just need some "ajaxy" reactivity. E.g. I can just render all my templates and HTML partials/fractals/components in the backend where I fetch/generate the data (using the template engine of my backend), return it as a response and be done with it. So as a mainly Go/PHP dev it's quite nice and easy to test/validate expectedHTML vs renderedHTML via string comparison xD.
It seems, HTMX is very open to hybrid approaches. Maybe we should use different technologies together to build UI´s:
I´m still not clear if there is any easy way to manage those pages.
Yes, there is no getting around scripting, but you can take a look at alternatives as Alpine.js, hyperscript or even Lit before you decide to render everything in a vDOM and introduce all the react stuff to your project.
I'm playing with the websockets extension right now on a project where my go client has a few 100 open connections to exchanges, aggregates the data into a Redis cache and serves the price aggregates back into a frontend in 10ms intervals. I'm still fiddling with some stuff, but so far its looking quite promising ... I basically have almost no JS remaining and everything is done via the hx attributes.
I also like this part (c&p from docs):
Thanks for mentioning Turbo!
Great Tool together with Stimulus
Amazing article, really loved reading through it, congrats!
FYI - If anyone has more question, then you should visit htmx discord channel as well. Community quite welcoming and active there.
If you talk about frontend, why do you add up backend tasks to the list of problems/complexities of frontend?
I didn’t get the point. HTMX is an abstraction layer built in js and so, comes at a price. The question: if react is overengineering for a simple web app, why shouldn’t I use vanilla js, but bother myself with another library and its specific syntax?
Because HTMX is simple. You just write hx-get + hx-target and the swapping is done. In vanilla js it would take more lines for sure.
The issue is that React can be use (with React Native) to create mobile and desktop applications and HTMX does not