I'm going to start by saying I'm sorry for this but I don't know what else to do. For 15 months I have been trying to get a coding job. I have a Bachelors in Computer Science, I graduated in 2012. It's a long story, but for years I was told by people I trusted that there was no future in coding and my information flow was heavily restricted. After working as a computer tech for some time, I got back into the coding habit and started looking for work, applying to coding jobs, starting a github, learning python. And for 15 months, despite passing coding tests and white board interviews, I have always been either rejected in favor of "a candidate with more experience" or asked how many enterprise e-commerce applications I have written as side projects. I saw the thread a while ago on how to get experience, but I have trouble coming up with side projects because well, it's been done already. Should I keep trying?
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One piece of advice that really helped me land my first (and second) coding jobs fresh out of college - hone your soft skills. I made mistakes on the whiteboarding interviews, but I was told both times that it was how I handled these mistakes and communicated with the hiring person that made them choose me for the position anyways.
You can teach pretty much anyone to code, but it's super difficult to teach someone good communication and quality "team" traits.
A few suggestions that look good to interviewers: Don't be afraid to ask questions if you don't fully understand the task or question. Don't be afraid to jot down a few notes if they give you specifics that you'll have to remember partway into your whiteboard problem (just don't write too much, a few words at most). Speak your mind as much as possible - don't babble, but also don't hold back your process as you work through the problem. The process and how you think is almost always more important than whether you came up with the perfect algorithm or the right solution.
Good luck to you!
I went through the same thing for 15 months as well. What I did in that time was make a portfolio, study and build like hell, applied for all the jobs I thought would (honestly) suit my developing set of skills and I got in front of every person who showed even the slightest interest in listening. I also worked on a few upwork projects to get myself a bit of experience.
It's discouraging as hell, but you'll make it if you just keep pushing and be honest with yourself about the jobs you're applying for. Don't go for only the bigger jobs, Jr positions are worth thier weight in gold. They'll get you in the door, you'll learn fast in the trenches and build up that experience.
KEEP TRYING, DONT GIVE UP!
Um... You sound WAY more qualified than I was when I landed a job. Build some super, super simple stuff. Like an add, minus thingy you click on that sends number to firebase for persistent storage, then add in the ability to query stuff in the database and display it. (just a rando idea.) I had a "portfolio" that wasn't even hosted that I showed for my interview. It was a basic react app (bloated web page more like it) that I shared with them via my computer's local host address over the company's wifi. All that to say, just keep trying to get a job coding somewhere, it WILL happen, even if it takes longer than expected.
And I thought i was having a hard time as I don't have a CS degree or good logic for that matter! Like you I can't seem to find a job where coding is a significant portion of my work.
Applying for jobs is rough. I am totally not surprised no one responds and this seems to be the norm to me. I think of job-hunting like online dating. People write a description, might meet face to face after some copious screening, and then ghost.
But I did get one soft dev offer before. I've never built projects that no one has done before, but it had never hurt for there to be a bunch of things to show off on github. I'm usually not able to pass the tests but I did them to get a sense of what the questions would be. I figure if I keep running into the fire, I'll get used to the hoops. Currently I am not capable of writing whole apps independently, without asking someone else when I am blocked. People are usually charmed by how excited I am and the small scale I want my projects to work at. Worse comes to worse, I can do emails and Photoshop ...but what a bore. This is my second career and unfortunately despite not being as sharp as peers I realize there isn't anything else I enjoy doing, so I aim to be perfectly mediocre.
If I can throw anything useful out here... I guess I got my foot in working at a digital ad agency. Many of them want people who know many digital tools and languages to churn out landing pages/maintain wordpresses/automate processes. They might not support best practices and may not pay as well as tech companies, and they also might not be as rigorous because tight deadlines lead to corner-cutting... but there's definitely a lot of different things to do in that environment. :)
Lots of good advice on this thread already.
I got my first development job on Upwork. I replied to a bunch of proposals with an hourly rate between $10-$20/hr and to my surprise the $20/hr job came through. I took down her WordPress site within 5 minutes of starting the job...but had a lot of motivation to get it back up and running. It was a great way to get experience.
Another thing to keep in mind as you apply for jobs is to think about the value you would bring to a company. Hiring managers dont always care about a portfolio, especially if you can communicate the value you bring to the company. I used to get really down because a lot of projects I worked on wouldn't go live or would see major delays, so it made my portfolio look weak. But then I started thinking about the accomplishments I was proud of, and that helped me reframe my value to a potential employer. For me, I would talk about initiatives I led in the company, things I had control over and some say in. Think about things you have done in any job that show you have good communication skills, can work well with others, take responsibility for your actions, or drive business success and you will start acing those interviews.
I got started freelancing on Fiverr.
I wasn't getting any real job offers, because I had no real job experience or a degree, but I knew my skills were up to par.
I posted a gig on Fiverr with ambitious pricing and portrayed myself as professional and experienced, which attracts more serious clients who don't want to go for the dirt cheap single page web site gigs. My gig was geared to people who wanted web apps with Vue Js and/or Node js backend.
I got less offers than I might've with a cheaper gig, but the first few clients were exactly the market I wanted. I offered new, niche-ish tech that can support advanced functionality, and clients approached me wanting mid-long term web apps. The 20% fee really hurts on Fiverr, but once I was able to get in contact with the client outside of Fiverr after the first gig, I was getting payed as a contractor biweekly!
I now work as a contractor for 7 months, my client being the company of the third guy who messaged me on Fiverr. I now have more experience, and I've been getting job offers I'm in a position to deny.
I can totally understand your situation as I've been through the same.
But you shouldn't lose hope. Starting a pet project is not as hard as you might think and it doesn't really have to be the "next facebook". Just start anything you think might help you learn on the way and go ahead. Once done, blog about it, about your journey while developing this app, what you learned, what inspired you and you will get your first audience. Post it on Medium, here on dev.to and if you have your own blog, post it there as well and who knows, you might get a job offer as well 😉
And about coming up with side projects, it doesn't matter if something is already done as long as your are building for learning. You see something, you like it? Create a clone of it. Look for stuff that's missing in it (nothing is perfect ever), add that too. And there is your new little pet project 🎉. Publish it on git and repeat...
Ouch, python, the wrong scripting language to begin with in the industry. I wrote intentionally "scripting language", because even if Python is a good OOP abstract programming language, it is only remembered as a simple scripting language by most employer. It is widely used in the graphic and movie industry, for automation of CGI processes, like for example Maya or Blender. And there are some academic faculties who hires python developers.
My advice: learn Java.
Don't say that you hate Java, its THE industry standard and this help you to get a job.
Regarding the word "standard", its just a word. It always depends where you search for a job.
Ok, so for me there likely several "issues", that explain why you don't get a job. Some only you can know maybe your are shy or do not respond correctly to interviews, you speak up front that you want to work for the syndicate or whatever. Maybe you are rusted and don't look that bright as dev. We have no idea.
On what is visible, what can I say ? Well you don't have significant developper experience to show (github isn't the same as 2 years working as dev in python for a company, sorry), your diploma is old (they would have expected 6 year of dev experience by now) and bachelor isn't the same as master degree. Theses things mean that most potential employers for interesting jobs will not want you and the one that would then will not provide the same money at all... Or if they have choice will take somebody else. That had recent experience, better diploma and so on.
The consulting part some proposed may be interesting if you make it fly, in particular as you likely need money.
I'd say in the short term you shall not be too picky and try to get anything. But for the future, I'd stress you want a master in computer sciences. This open completely new opportunities and also give a whole different level on the money and your evolution. Most developers have a master, some have several or a thesis. You don't want to be part of the few that don't have one. Interestingly, once you graduate, you'll be able to sell you are beginner and just learned the latest greatest in some area. Ensure your master focus on being productive in the company. Project management, methodology, lot of courses on practical stuff like JAVA + APIs, Big data and so on.
You could try to both things at the same time, maybe try to graduate and have a linked part time job at the same time part actually of your graduation. At least in my country it is quite common. you would get a somewhat low pay but will make a significant experience and at the same time get your diploma. you'll be the guy everybody will want to get in their company after that and if your are half decent, chances are your employer would propose you to stay in the company.
Also, please if you don't find, don't be too picky. To get a job, you should accept to relocate, do things that maybe are not ideal for you... Especially the first job. Once you have a recent 1-2 year full time experience in the field, it will be much easier to get another job and so to do it more near to your ideal location.
All the best to you,
Nicolas.
Thank you all so much for the advice and support, I have a lot more stuff to do and try now :)
Hi Everyone,
Can relate to every word of your narration, Christopher! And with all of the people who may have been in this scenario.
My situation from the past 6 months is somewhat similar,
as 60% of the time - my application is rejected without even the 1st round of interview.
In 35%, I usually make it past atleast 4-5 rounds - which are positive (in some cases - the offer) only to be put down by reasons beyond my comprehension.
The remaining 5% simply don't respond which is something I find very weird.
Could anyone here please recommend me as to what I should be doing better?
PS: I've been a Linux Systems Administrator with ~4 years of experience looking to transition into either DevOps / Operations / Site Reliability Engineering.
You can find my complete portfolio here [cakeresume.com/vinay-hegde-portfolio] and reach out to me via [vinay.hegde30@gmail.com]
Thanks in advance!
just keep going. it's almost a year for me too and I do have relevant experience. at least I think I have it. kinda. working as a programmer is supposed to count as experience, right?
On the subject of side-projects, I've struggled with that as well, until I realized that many projects my friends do are X-with-a-twist. Sometimes the twist is re-implementing in a different lang to understand the thing better, sometimes it's minor stuff.
Otherwise I have little advice outside of keep trucking and try to find sympathetic recruiters who might be willing to give you genuine feedback.
I will say that it takes a ton of character and bravery to post this, respect to you man. Countless people are in your situation but would be unwilling to post about it, I think it shows that you are light on ego and willing to try new approaches. Good luck!
You don't need to come up w/ a side project that has never been done before! This is something that troubled me for soooo long, and then one day, I had real eureka moment. You don't need to come up w/ some genius idea that is completely original or novel. (In fact, if you're trying to come up w/ a business idea, you don't even really want to.)
Do you know how many blogging platforms there are? Or forums? Or task managers? Too many to count.
The point of having a side project is to demonstrate your skills, and not just your coding skills. Having a side project is an opportunity to talk excitedly (and passionately) about something you know very well and are familiar with. It's a way to show that you can identify a problem, come up with a solution, communicate it to others, market the project, design an interface, write a clear readme, etc.
You also don't have to come up w/ a full-blown side project or contribute to open source projects. I asked six technical founders how engineers can stand out from the applicant pool, and I thought Amy Hoy's response was really awesome. Here's an excerpt:
I guess it depends on your definition of what passion is, but when I see you say that you must be passionate in order to succeed or even get an opportunity in this industry, I'm confused. Is that the only way to find a job? To be excited overall about the industry? Maybe I'm not explaining myself too well. What I mean to say is that I don't believe you have to be passionate to succeed in any industry, yet uniquely, I see a lot of people discouraging one another in articles and comments about people who don't find programming to be their passion or life purpose or what have you. At least for me, I chose this because it's a way to finally move out of my parent's house and not struggle to survive on minimum wage. Yes. Money isn't everything, but when you're struggling with sacrificing rent or food, at least for me, I'd want to avoid that to begin with. And for my situation, programming is a way to finally be on my own. I've even got a 2 year degree to help my matters. I just graduated days ago.
I think we're on the same page here, actually. It matters how you define "passion" and of course, what you're passionate about. There are tons of folks who are passionate about making money and they've absolutely succeeded. I personally don't think that there is anything wrong w/ that.
I do think that if two people are going head to head, the person who is more passionate about the race/project/task at hand is going to out perform the other (all else being equal). I see this in myself all the time. There are plenty of things that I'm good at, but that I don't enjoy doing. I drag my feet, procrastinate, and don't care much about the final product. There are plenty of things that I'm not particularly good at but they give me life. Caring so much makes me do those things well.
You don't have to LOVE what a company does in order to love working there, but there are plenty of companies that have the ability to choose from a big pool of candidates and value a genuine passion for their product/service/industry.
Think about it like dating or marriage. Plenty of people want to have kids and raise a family. You don't have to be in love w/ your partner to do those things. As a result, some people prioritize that "passion" more than others.
So what you're saying is, if you were in my shoes and programming wasn't your passion, you would find a career that does give you passion? Is that an accurate conclusion?
Not quite. If you absolutely hate programming and dread doing it every day, then I think it's worth taking a step back to consider what you'd rather be doing. It's a privilege to be able to "do what you love" instead of needing to make ends meet. For most programmers, after some time, they have that luxury to be choosey, and I urge them to think long and hard about how they spend their waking hours.
If you enjoy programming, but aren't particularly passionate about it, I'd encourage you to think about what does light your fire and give you life. One of the best things about programming is that you can combine it w/ just about anything. Whether you love fashion, travel, analytics, or medicine, there are countless jobs that combine code and the thing you love. Non-profits need programmers too, and so do educational universities.
I know this is some old post, but...
I agree with both of you: you don't need to be passionate about coding to work with it - specially when your main goal at the moment is making ends meet.
But when things starts to drag you down, is time to search for somewhere where you can combine your crafts with your passion, as Lynne suggested. And even on this situation, you still don't need to be passionate about coding.
Take care!
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