It's pronounced Diane. I do data architecture, operations, and backend development. In my spare time I maintain Massive.js, a data mapper for Node.js and PostgreSQL.
I can honestly say I've never had an issue on SO, but I also only started participating a decade into my career, by which point I understood how it worked quite well from years of using it as a resource.
Which says a lot, really. If the site only got new users with that kind of background, it'd long since have gone the way of the dodo. And it definitely does a bad job of helping inexperienced people write for posterity (the actual goal) which has an outsized impact on diversity just from numbers.
I think an issue with Stack Overflow is that software development became so mainstream in the last decade and some of the subtle cultural changes that go along with that have failed to evolve.
Otherwise I think this article hits the nail on the head on a few topics.
Let’s make it easier for new users to succeed.
It's not even that Stack isn't welcoming to new developers, it's that it's not welcoming to new users. It's way to easy to break a rule you didn't realize existed and the interface is so purely utilitarian that it sort of makes you feel bad for breaking the rules. It's a little thing but it hits those who already feel like outsiders the hardest.
Another interesting part of the article:
Let’s do something about comments. Condescension and sarcasm have been reluctantly tolerated in comments for too long. We’ll research possible feature changes, but let’s start by working with the community and our community managers to start flagging and deleting unkind comments now.
Interestingly I find it funny that they allow a lot of condescension while also banning a lot of things that seem uplifting or pleasant interactions. This is all anecdotal but I think it's the truth.
Stack Overflow is super wonderful and its warts are a real shame because the truth is that it's probably the single most important resource new developers can have technically. But it just missed on some cultural elements.
I've talked about this all before, as mentioned in @evanoman
but I found it interesting that just yesterday Jeff Atwood weighed in with this (IMO) super tone-deaf tweet:
Jeff Atwood
@codinghorror
No system with downvoting, and close-as-duplicate (or "putting on hold") will ever truly be considered "welcoming". Nor should it be.
20:56 PM - 26 Apr 2018
30
198
Jeff's no longer with Stack but it's a shame he can't take a bit of leadership on the non-controversial idea that being "welcoming" is not a bad thing.
Interestingly I find it funny that they allow a lot of condescension while also banning a lot of things that seem uplifting or pleasant interactions. This is all anecdotal but I think it's the truth.
This is so true. It is pretty common to see comments discouraging "thank you" comments but you rarely see someone calling out condescension.
I agree with your assessment of this new article, hopefully it is a first step in the right direction.
In regards, to Jeff's comment. I think it applies more to the likes of Reddit than SO. This other quote comes to mind.
If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.
That's definitely understandable. I think some of this comes from the complications of a large group of people having to collectively understand that perhaps there is frustrations on both sides of this issue, and we're all in this together.
But I'm pretty sure, having established a dialog with Jeff myself, that it's not unfair to say that these tweets are in response to Stack criticism.
These are classic human problems we've been having for about 50,000 years. The internet makes it that much more complicated.
I've been a professional C, Perl, PHP and Python developer.
I'm an ex-sysadmin from the late 20th century.
These days I do more Javascript and CSS and whatnot, and promote UX and accessibility.
I can honestly say I've never had an issue on SO, but I also only started participating a decade into my career, by which point I understood how it worked quite well from years of using it as a resource.
Which says a lot, really. If the site only got new users with that kind of background, it'd long since have gone the way of the dodo. And it definitely does a bad job of helping inexperienced people write for posterity (the actual goal) which has an outsized impact on diversity just from numbers.
I think an issue with Stack Overflow is that software development became so mainstream in the last decade and some of the subtle cultural changes that go along with that have failed to evolve.
Otherwise I think this article hits the nail on the head on a few topics.
It's not even that Stack isn't welcoming to new developers, it's that it's not welcoming to new users. It's way to easy to break a rule you didn't realize existed and the interface is so purely utilitarian that it sort of makes you feel bad for breaking the rules. It's a little thing but it hits those who already feel like outsiders the hardest.
Another interesting part of the article:
Interestingly I find it funny that they allow a lot of condescension while also banning a lot of things that seem uplifting or pleasant interactions. This is all anecdotal but I think it's the truth.
Stack Overflow is super wonderful and its warts are a real shame because the truth is that it's probably the single most important resource new developers can have technically. But it just missed on some cultural elements.
I've talked about this all before, as mentioned in @evanoman but I found it interesting that just yesterday Jeff Atwood weighed in with this (IMO) super tone-deaf tweet:
Jeff's no longer with Stack but it's a shame he can't take a bit of leadership on the non-controversial idea that being "welcoming" is not a bad thing.
This is so true. It is pretty common to see comments discouraging "thank you" comments but you rarely see someone calling out condescension.
I agree with your assessment of this new article, hopefully it is a first step in the right direction.
I'm confident things will improve.
In regards, to Jeff's comment. I think it applies more to the likes of Reddit than SO. This other quote comes to mind.
SO's situation and intolerance I feel more is bound from more experienced developers being upset as the lack from research and a large number of questions from users with only 1 reputation as well as people that just drop walls of text and code and expect an answer.
That's definitely understandable. I think some of this comes from the complications of a large group of people having to collectively understand that perhaps there is frustrations on both sides of this issue, and we're all in this together.
But I'm pretty sure, having established a dialog with Jeff myself, that it's not unfair to say that these tweets are in response to Stack criticism.
These are classic human problems we've been having for about 50,000 years. The internet makes it that much more complicated.
Oh yeah, with Jeff's history as the founder of the company and the release of the blog post there's not doubt it was in regards to SO :)
With my intro, I was just pointing out it seems many communities at scale have similar issues haha.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_n...
:blinks: