Last time, I told you what I think about the question "What is your current salary?".
Let's talk now about a very different beast, the question a...
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A big thanks to the commentators to my previous article!
I learnt a lot from your comments and you informed my thinking on this follow-up article @256hz @mrsaeeddev @crimsonmed @michaelandreuzza @mdrijwan @dannymoerkerke @deca @ildar10 @adsidera @itsashleighhyo @190245 @pblitz @gwutama @recursivefaults @feichinger @alexmartelli @openlowcode @jack_garrus @merkrynis @simondodson @kaeptnkrunch @mmanousos @alexiswalravens @msk61 @raychenon @fwd079 @scroung720 @fluxthedev @thehoffy73 @skylerdevops !
Yes, yes, yes, 100%!
You're going to be afraid that this won't work somehow, but don't be. You might get the occasional recruiter who acts astonished that you won't give them a number, but it's usually an act. For one thing, companies are well aware that we smart enginerding types have clued in on the information disparity inherent in salary negotiations and don't want to share our salary history -- which should be irrelevant, anyway -- and are beginning to expect them to make a "fair" offer first.
I've actually gotten less pushback from this excellent strategy than I did using the "anchoring" strategy of starting with a high number. And I didn't get much pushback on that strategy, either, because the recruiters and HR knew exactly what I was doing and why. The thing is, it doesn't matter that they know, the strategies work even when the other party is aware of them.
Also, I have to ask this question in phone screens, but I'm always hoping the candidate will dodge it. Few do. Some of them have a good idea what the market rate is. Some of them ask a little higher, either to anchor or because they think they are excellent candidates -- and they often are; we get some really good ones. But some ask for way, WAY too little. As in, they should probably be asking for nearly twice as much. Or better yet, keep their mouths shut and be pleasantly surprised! Very often, these turn out to be weaker candidates who were already on the fence. Majorly undervaluing your worth and showing that card can actually hurt your chances, too!
If I haven't lost you yet, let me offer a couple of real-life stories that prove you have a lot more power and room to negotiate than you think:
1) A coworker/friend was interviewing with a company in town that wanted him because he had lots of experience and a great track record. They were known for recruiting high-end talent and paying well. A friend that used to work with us was also interviewing with them. They were both pretty likely to get an offer. My coworker made 2 requests between being told they wanted to make him an offer and getting it in writing: I want -- negotiable -- and you have to hire both of us -- non-negotiable. They agreed immediately to make them both non-competing offers, but said we can't do , but we can do and put you on a fast-track to raise that and add bonuses. The other friend got a similar offer. Both accepted.
2) When I was working with my current company about an offer, I said that I would rather let them to make an offer first. No problem. They came in with an OK number, but it wasn't quite worth leaving my existing position, as I was expecting a promotion with a small boost soonish. So I told them that I had noticed a recent uptick in engineering salaries in our area that I expected to continue and that I was in no hurry to leave my current position, so I needed an offer at least 10% higher. Boom, done, no problem. I accepted, but we ran into some issues between their closing contract negotiations with prime contractors and some personal life things for me, so I ended up pulling out of the offer a couple months later (I was expecting some delay in starting). About 8 months after their original offer, they reached back out again saying they had immediate job openings, no need to reinterview, and they were ready to make an offer that started on my schedule. I requested a $5K sign-on bonus this time and a 2 week gap between the jobs. They gladly met that, and also added another 2.5% to the salary without me asking since it had been over 6 months. I accepted and started in November. In December, I received a small pay bump with everyone else when their rates adjusted, plus a Christmas bonus, and I got a small performance bonus in February. The next year, I got a 7.5% raise, Xmas bonus, and an even better performance bonus since I'd been there longer. So clearly, I had not pushed them hard at all on my salary offer. And this is a small company that had 85 people when I first talked to them. We had 150-160 a little over 2 years later, which we've kind of hovered at (because 2020), and I'm on the interview team. Our turnover is near the bottom of the industry. People want to work for us, and they still negotiated with me.
Now, in the first case, we're talking guys with 15-20 years of experience here with solid histories in my industry. They had all the leverage. In my case, it's a Master's and 10+ years (at the time), but I did not have significantly more leverage than anyone else except they scouted me (through LinkedIn), I have a well-written resume, and the competition for all types of engineering talent in my area had been hot for a couple of years (and remains so). You have slightly less leverage if you're a new grad, but you're going to get a standard offer from most companies. Sometimes I'll just skip the salary question and make the recruiter do it if he insists. But even if you've just got 2-3 years in with even 1 solid contribution on your resume, you have a plenty of room to negotiate!
Awesome comment, thank you for sharing all of this!
Great article, thanks. Often, we end up shooting ourselves in the foot because of rushed salary expectations. Yeah, I would like to see more transparency around salaries in all companies and clear path on how to get to the next stage
I really like this article. I'm curious - what is the evidence that these techniques work? I've tried them before - a little - and what I usually get is "yes but you have to put something down." The HR person won't take no for an answer.
They will take no for an answer, trust me. If they won't, you probably don't want to work for them, because if they won't be flexible with people they're trying to recruit, how do you want to bet they treat employees? That said, if you're really pressed and have to, go in with a decent idea of what you should get, then give them a number significantly higher. This is a well-proven negotiation strategy called "anchoring". If they say "that seems kind of high," say "Well, I'm negotiable on that, but I'd have to see an offer with the full benefits package and everything included to decide." I've had companies offer me nearly $20K less than my "requested salary" when I used this tactic, so it won't block an offer. But by starting high when pressed, you've set the negotiation around a higher target value, which is to your benefit.
One catch is on black-hole application systems that won't let you leave it blank. If you can put words, just say "negotiable". Otherwise put $0, because it's an obvious non-answer. If that's not allowed, try something else obviously dodging like $1, $1000, or $999999.
Experience
I also have a more theoretical answer. I wrote last an article Contributing to open-source is like dancing Tango where I explain that if you really want to master the dance, you have to practice and understand it as both a follower and a leader.
The same principle applies here. If you understand what happens on the hiring side, the tactics become obvious. Well of course if I want to create a job opening, I will decide for a budget for it. Of course I won't pay anyone less than my budget, and not much more either. Of course, if I'm a looking for someone good for months already, without success, I won't be mad because the candidate defends its right of negotiating its salary.
The book Fearless Salary Negotiation spends lots of time explaining how hiring works on the other side FYI.
This is helpful thank you. i just have one scenario that i personally encountered, they ask me " what is your currently salary" or "what is salary from your last job". i did answer this and i guess i made a mistake because if you are underpaid from your last job they will probably offer almost the same.
Yep, that's what the previous article was all about!
Even if they didn't have bad intentions, the question puts the candidate in a loose-loose situation while the pay history is not relevant to establish the new salary.
βWhat is your current salary?β is a red flag that you donβt want to work here
Jean-Michel Fayard π«π·π©πͺπ¬π§πͺπΈπ¨π΄ γ» Oct 10 γ» 5 min read
Great article Jean-Michel. It is nice to spread this knowledge. I really hate businesses that underpaid employees. There is an industry of people getting rich just because developers doesn't have this kind of information. This article is pretty important for every junior.
I have an interesting anecdote about this topic:
At some point of my career I was giving advice to a young programming consulting company. I was in the office of a big financial corp helping the guys who have outsourced job position. This big company was working with multiple consulting companies we knew guys from others companies. Eventually a new just graduated went into another team. Few months later we were talking about salaries. We realized he was getting paid x2 less than average and even with an extreme case of 5x less.
Here is where the plot twist goes this underpaid boy was relative of one director of the company. He told his relative the amount that he was getting paid and he told us that his relative told him that they were paying x12 was he was getting paying for each programmer in the team. What happened next big corp cancelled the contract with that specific consulting company and moved the boy to work with us.
Wild. Thank you for your story!
Personally I enjoy interviewing. The salary question ALWAYS comes up, it has to. There is no shame in asking βwhats the salary band/range for this position?β. If it becomes a game of chicken with βyou first!β. Then use the research that youβve ALREADY DONE and state βwell what youβr asking for and market rate indicates to me a range of $X-$XX.β If you have discovered that the range is $85-$95 but they will only go to $78? Do you really wanna work there?
But i need a job NOW!! I got bills to pay!! I get it, my @ss has been there too. But by God you create that 3-6 month rainy day fund and never put yourself in this situation again.
Those are good points in the "Who is at risk of being underpaid". But If you are not in that position, just ask for an outrageous amount and see if it lands. That not always works, but it is pretty nice when it does it is worth the risk. I speak from experience.
Great followup, and you've started a wonderful conversation. Well done!
Thank you!
Awesome tips, thanks for sharing mate! <3