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Overview
📖 AWS re:Invent 2025-Tee Off the Future: How Technology Is Transforming Golf & Fan Engagement-SPF101
In this video, Tyler Green from AWS sports marketing interviews Amanda Balionis (CBS golf reporter) and Chad Mumm (co-founder of Pro Shop Holdings, creator of Full Swing) about technology's transformation of golf. They discuss AWS's partnership with the PGA Tour, processing five million data points per tournament through cloud infrastructure and AI. Key topics include how TourCast statistics enable better storytelling for broadcasters and fans, the success of the Creator Classic in reaching 140 million people through YouTube golf influencers, and AI applications from automated commentary to player training optimization. The panel explores golf's consumer boom with 15 million new players since COVID, the importance of making the sport accessible to casual fans through data visualization and shot tracking technology, and future opportunities including VR experiences and Olympics as potential fifth major. They address the balance between protecting broadcast rights and embracing digital creators, emphasizing that live sports remains central to the media ecosystem while technology helps contextualize player performance for broader audiences.
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Main Part
Introduction: AWS and the PGA Tour's Technology Partnership
Hey everybody, welcome to the sports forum at re:Invent. For those of you who may be new and just walked in for this next session, you are sitting in our immersive showcase of sports and entertainment here where we're showcasing how cloud data and AI are changing sports globally. So if you haven't had a chance to already, I encourage you to walk around and see how leagues like the NFL and the NBA, Bundesliga, and of course the PGA Tour are transforming their sport through technology. But today's session is all about golf and I've got two amazing guests here with me.
First of all, let me introduce myself. My name is Tyler Green. I'm on our AWS sports marketing team. I'm going to introduce our guests here that we're going to ask some questions to, which is a little intimidating to be sitting next to Amanda Balionis. Amanda actually worked as an in-house reporter for the PGA Tour before joining CBS in 2017. She's really seen the evolution of golf media from the inside, so you've probably seen her on TV covering some of golf's biggest moments and interviewing some of golf's biggest stars. You're usually the one asking the questions, so I know you might want to switch places. I'm way less comfortable on this side.
Thank you for being here. Next, Chad Mumm, who's the co-founder and president of Pro Shop Holdings, is the creative mind behind Full Swing on Netflix, which is one of my favorite things that's happened in golf in the last ten years. Pro Shop also acquired Scratch, which does a lot of the digital media work with the PGA Tour. Most recently, which you'll talk a little bit about, the Skins game just aired and was revitalized and brought back on Black Friday on Prime Video. So we'll talk a little bit more about that. Thank you so much for being here.
Let's dive in a little bit. Today we're going to explore how technology is transforming golf. Let me just set the stage a little and then I'm going to turn it over to these guys to do the majority of the talking here. AWS has been partnered with the PGA Tour for years now, and we're the official cloud, AI, and machine learning provider for the tour. We've transformed their entire infrastructure to the cloud, so their new global golf home in Florida is an entirely serverless environment. It all runs on AWS.
Everything runs on AWS as the backbone of their tech. We've been able to process five million data points per tournament, tracking everything from club head speed to ball spin rates to shot trajectories all in real time. We're also using AI to create personalized fan experiences like generative AI commentary and using computer vision to track every ball on every green. Lastly, of particular interest to our broadcaster and content creator friends, we've migrated all of the PGA Tour archival footage to the cloud, which makes it really helpful for being able to quickly pull up something that's happened historically and provide context to golf viewers globally.
Amanda Balionis on Golf's Evolution: From Intimidating to Accessible
As we've seen this evolution of golf in the last five to ten years, let's ask some questions about it. So Amanda, let me start with you. What's impressed you most about golf's evolution over the past decade? A lot has impressed me over the evolution of golf. I think when I joined as an in-house reporter for the PGA Tour in 2011, we were still trying to figure things out. I took the job as the internet host for PGA Tour dot com, and I've told this story recently that I was told by a lot of my colleagues in New York. I was working for the MSG Network at the time, and they were like, do not go and work for a website. Nobody is ever going to consume sports on a website. You're basically killing your career before it even begins.
So the fact that that's where we were in 2011, not that long ago, and now most people at the age of forty something and under are only consuming their sports on digital platforms, that progress is unbelievable. Also, the way I think that we think as broadcasters and rights holders with the PGA Tour, the way that we bring the product to the viewer, I think before golf especially was not created with the casual golf fan in mind. It was very much like if you know, you know. You have to play the game to be interested in watching the game. You have to know all these fancy courses in order to understand how cool it is. Now that's just not what it is. It's like, hey, we want all of these casual golf fans. We want to be able to cater to the catch index player and the thirty-six index player that maybe just plays once or twice a year. But the way that you have to do that is through technology. You have to make it more understandable to everybody across the board. So I think when you talk about making the game more accessible, really that goes hand in hand with increasing the technology to make it so you don't feel like you're making it out of reach for those who might already be intimidated.
It's truly about making it less intimidating. The more technology we're able to put into our broadcast, the better.
Chad Mumm on Making Golf Exciting: Shot Tracking, Data, and the Consumer Boom
That's a great segue to Chad. Chad, you've been a part of that evolution, right, with creating things like Full Swing and the Creator Classic and just different platforms. Talk to me about golf's evolution over the last decade from your perspective.
I mean, you think about what Amanda was saying—how do you make golf more exciting to people? I think one of the unique challenges of golf is that it's very hard to see and showcase how good these players are when golf is traditionally broadcast. There's a lot of conversation obviously. Amanda is at the Masters every single year, and Augusta National. Every time if you've ever been there to the Masters, everybody says it's way hillier than you expect. Broadcast television has a way of flattening things, and the way golf traditionally was broadcast, you'd see a ball flying through the air with very little context. It lands on the green, a player would be happy or sad.
Just thinking about the improvement of shot tracking and shot tracing technology and what that's brought—it allows players and fans to see how these players are shaping these shots and controlling their golf ball. That's one of the first of a myriad of different ways that technology has helped enhance the broadcast. You think also about all the amazing data we have. Golf, unlike a sport like soccer or even football, has a lot of time in between shots that you have to build story, and that's what I think makes golf so great.
You can immediately say, "Okay, Rory's sitting here in the rough on the left side. His shot shape favors this for this reason. He's gotten up and down from here. You know, it's an expected birdie opportunity." You can create so much context, and then when the ball's flying through the air, you have these moments of excitement. That's what ultimately makes golf such a thrilling sport when you have the context and you see the ball flying through the air. It's an inherently dramatic moment as you're waiting—is it going to be as close as we think?
I come back to—I don't know how many people here watched the Masters this year, but it's the most stressed out I've ever been on Sunday watching Rory try to get it done. When he was standing to the left of that 15th hole, he's got that second shot. Imagine watching that broadcast 15 years ago. It would have been really exciting, but as soon as that ball flight comes out and you see it start to turn and you hear Jim's voice, "Is it enough? It is. Shot of a lifetime." I think we have so many more tools now to help contextualize how these pro athletes are getting things done out there and how good they are.
The second thing I'd add is that golf is in the middle of a consumer boom right now. There are 35 to 50 million golfers in the United States alone, and a lot of that—15 million of those people started playing golf during COVID. There's been a lot of barrier to entry to golf that has come down. It used to be seen as this very elitist sport, sort of the country clubs, kind of out of touch old people sport. The new wave of consumers that have come to the game is way more diverse, way more male-female split, almost fifty-fifty, way younger.
You think about golf as an older demographic, but the new people coming into the game are way, way younger. The idea of getting a club in people's hands—it used to be you had to go to a golf course and play. Now it's through things like Topgolf or Putt Shack or simulators or even video games and virtual reality golf. There are so many ways to experience golf and try it for the first time.
The other thing too, I think—hopefully some of the work that I've been lucky enough to be a part of like Happy Gilmore 2 or Full Swing or Creator Classic—these projects try to put golf into the pop culture consciousness. But you can't discount the thousands of influential people, whether it's LeBron James or Saquon Barkley or every country musician who is in a running game right now to see who's the best golfer. Golf has permeated culture, and young people these days see these athletes and these actors and these musicians and entertainers that they admire. When they're out of season or off tour, they're on the golf course, and that has created this groundswell of consumer interest in the sport.
I think actually the PGA Tour ratings are finally catching up to this consumer wave that's happened. I think the future couldn't be brighter, not just for golf but for the PGA Tour and pro golf in particular.
The Creator Classic: Opening the Floodgates to YouTube Golf Creators
So let me follow up on that really quick with you. You talked about it a little bit there, but fan engagement is a huge thing for AWS with our partnership with the tour and the DP World Tour. The Creator Classic and the Skins game are sort of a new differentiated way to engage and interact with the game of golf. Talk to me a little bit about how this came about and how the tour has been supporting you there.
The Creator Classic—if you're not familiar, we've got some great photos up here—was birthed in a breakfast meeting at the Players Championship sort of 2.5 years ago. I had just completed Full Swing season two, and I was catching up with Jay Monahan, who's the commissioner of the tour. He said, "Well, what do you want to do next? Where's the opportunity?" I said there are more people watching golf on YouTube and on Instagram that don't tune into your broadcast on the weekend. They're new superstars in the sport that are growing in followers. They're really good players, but they're making a living playing golf for audiences completely outside your ecosystem of the PGA Tour. I said, "You've invited them."
My pitch was to open the floodgates instead of just dripping content. Why not invite all the top YouTube golf creators and Instagram golfers to a PGA Tour event and throw a golf tournament for them the day before the Tour Championship? We could give them a PGA Tour level experience and stream it on the PGA Tour's YouTube channel. People did think it was cool. It became the most viewed piece of content that the PGA Tour ever put on its YouTube channel. The combined total reach of all twelve participants was about 140 million people.
We did it on a Wednesday with a creative pitch inspired by Space Camp for golfers. The idea was to give these creators a chance to experience what it's like to be a PGA Tour player as close to reality as possible. It was on a tour setup, literally twelve hours before the first tee times in the Tour Championship. We had about 5,000 people out watching them. It was live streamed, stroke play, and they played the back nine. I remember watching Colin Murakawa walking to the workout trailer with a crowd of about 300 people, eight deep on the rope line, and he said, "What is going on? There's more people watching these YouTube creators than there are watching us in our practice rounds."
I have to give major credit to the PGA Tour for being willing to take a flyer on a really wild idea. They not only invited these creators to play at the tournament before the season-ending event, but they also gave them access to all of their archive and allowed them to post content about playing in this event to all of their own channels. They could intermix content, showing their shot on the tenth hole compared to Scotty Scheffler's shot. They gave them all the data, both the TourCast performance data and all the information about how they played, not just from that year but all the way back.
The twelve to sixteen creators who participated had a combined reach where all the video content they created together was almost 50 million views. We took a sleepy afternoon at a PGA Tour event with no programming at the Tour Championship and turned it into a content and ratings bonanza, pushing a new audience. The audience for the first Creator Classic was eighty percent people who had never been a subscriber to the PGA Tour's YouTube channel. It was reaching an entirely new audience than what they were used to reaching.
This is a great example of not thinking it fully through, just opening the doors and letting us run with it. We showed up that week and did it. Hats off to the tour for really embracing this new audience. Our goal in general is how do you turn that fandom into fans of the broadcast, the CBS broadcast on Saturday and Sunday? How do you merge the gap between that online world and the core golf audience? How do you take that overall audience and bring that median age down as the PGA Tour looks to compete with the NFL, the NBA, and these other major leagues?
Meeting Fans Where They Are: Cross-Promotion Between Digital and Traditional Media
What I think Chad is highlighting here is that it's imperative to meet the fan where they are, and that's something that golf has been missing for a really long time. Golf tells you what you should be doing, the way you should dress, the way you should act, the things that are cool and the things that are not. Now because of this boom and all of the diversity that is really being infused into our game, the world of golf and the PGA Tour is being forced to look at this and say, the demand is different here. If we are going to keep up with this demand and not get lost in this wave of influencers, YouTube golf, and everyone else passing us by, we're going to have to meet the fans where they are and give them what they want.
I actually think it's a really pivotal moment in golf right now. The PGA Tour has paid attention and they're not stuck in their ways. They're saying we hear you loud and clear, we see these numbers, the stats don't lie, the data doesn't lie. We have to be able to evolve and we have to stay flexible, and that's exactly what you're seeing. The Creator Classic was a really great example of this. Cross promotion of things can get lost in translation a lot, and I actually think it's one of the most important things that we can do if you're part of traditional media. If we're doing something really cool on the internet, no matter what platform that is, that needs to make an impact on our traditional platforms.
How do we do that for the Creator Classic? Well, the greatest example was Tour Cast, right? People are coming out to follow their favorite influencers, and I think sometimes it's easy to forget how good the professionals are on the PGA Tour and the LPGA Tour. When you're watching your favorite influencers and they're showing you their great shots, they're never really showing you their bad shots, right? Sometimes you're like, oh, they're all kind of the same. They are not the same, and the best way to bring out that comparison is to look at your favorite influencers competing on Wednesday at the Tour Championship at East Lake with the same setup as the PGA Tour players.
Then taking those Tour Cast data points and saying, wait, I'm sorry, what? The pros are out driving these influencers by 150, 200 yards. What do you mean that's where Roger Steele's ball went? Like, you can't even see it on the data points for professionals the next day. So I think that's a really cool way to be able to fuse both worlds together, which I think is really important. As you continue to see this progress, Good Good, which has been an absolute phenomenon in the influencer space, is now a title sponsor of a professional golf event, right? Like you're starting to see the future happen now.
I think what you're going to start to see is that we at CBS are not going to be able to ignore the Creator Classic on our broadcast. We're going to have to say, hey, let's take a look at a side-by-side screen comparison between, I don't know, some of the No Laying Up or Barstool guys or whoever it is next to Scotty Scheffler or Max Homa or Rory McIlroy, whatever it is. So I think you're going to start to see that cross promotion really hit because then what happens is all of a sudden these influencers are seeing themselves on CBS having their shot called by Jim Nance and they're going to post that so fast to their channels.
Then people are going to want to tune in to CBS Sports to see what's happening. So that cross promotion matters so deeply. Ten years ago it mattered more for the digital platforms. Now we're seeing that big shift where it's way more important for us as traditional broadcasters to be more in tune with what's happening digitally so that we can actually capitalize on it to continue to reach that younger demographic that are the consumers now of this game.
Viral Moments and Archive Access: Fat Perez's 'Bigger Than Most' Putt
I love when you interviewed Sly at the Creator Classic and he was just saying how humbling Tour Cast was. He's just getting roasted by his buddies because you're seeing Tour Cast and seeing Xander or Rory put it out in the middle of the fairway every time. He's like, you're seeing a duck hook left into the trees. When you're only seeing the best in the world do this with their stats, it's easy to get lost in just how good that is.
I always say we should bring back that show Pros versus Joes. Do you guys remember that show? I was obsessed with that when I was younger. Maybe that should be the next thing, Chad. Let's do it. I'm ready. I think that would be incredible. Dad's in the business of reviving things. Yeah, but that basically is like a miniature version of what this is, right? Your favorite Joe versus your favorite pro, and they are in two different stratospheres even though it's on the same golf course. It's very cool.
Yeah, one thing to add to that, I think, is to speak to the two most viral moments from the second Creator Classic, the one we did at the Players Championship. You know, the most famous hole in golf, probably I'd say the 17th hole at TPC Sawgrass, the Island Green. We had this debate actually on my podcast. Is it the most? Yeah, we're getting no, I'd say Augusta National might have something to say about 12 or 13. What do you mean 12? Well, I'd say 12 and 17 at Sawgrass. We'll take a vote on this at the end of the panel. Yes, okay.
So you know, talk about this exact thing, the Pros versus Joes, the two moments that went viral. We played the back nine at Sawgrass on the Wednesday before. There were two moments. One was Trent from Barstool, who made like a 14 on that hole because he hit it in the water like eight times and he had a crowd of about 1000 people saying one more every time he'd hit it in the water. When that ball finally landed on the green, the crowd went up like he won the golf tournament. The roar was incredible all over the golf course, so it was like a one of us moment.
And then by the way, you flash forward to the following Monday, Rory McIlroy winning on that hole in a playoff against JJ Spann. So going back to that, the first moment was Trent just showing what a regular Joe would do on one of these really hard golf courses with all the pressure of people watching live. And then the other moment was, I don't know if you follow Bob Does Sports, but one of their talents is a guy named Fat Perez. I loved Fat Perez. So he found himself during the tournament in the exact same place where Tiger Woods was when he won the Players Championship in 2001, and there's a very famous putt.
It was Saturday. It's the Better Than Most putt, so the ball's rolling down the hill, better than most, better than most, how about it, Johnny Miller, and then boom, fist pump. So of course what happens is Fat Perez finds himself there. He's also wearing a white shirt, hits the exact same putt, drains it from the exact same spot almost exactly to the exact second that Tiger does. And so we over immediately were able to, given that all the PGA Tour archive is all in the cloud now, our team on the broadcast was able to find that clip of Tiger, pair it next to Fat Perez's putt, and put out a tweet that was bigger than most.
We got into a little bit of trouble for that, but it ended up going viral. I think it's just another great example of embracing this new audience and bringing them closer to the tour on a Wednesday.
The Narrative Shift: How Influencers and Professional Tours Need Each Other
The other advantage the tour has is that their events are a week long. An NFL game is just on Sunday. They're not taking over a town for a whole week. The PGA Tour event basically starts on Monday and runs all the way through the weekend, with practice rounds, Thursday and Friday early rounds, and Saturday and Sunday. For fan engagement, why not reach out to that community and create opportunities to introduce a different audience to what's going on at that golf course? Over time, you can turn them into fans who will come back, maybe bring their kids, be in the hospitality tents, and become core fans.
I think it's just about opening the tent as wide as you can get, especially in this world where all of media is so highly fragmented. How do you open up that audience and try to reach people where they are? I think ten years ago, influencers—if we were even using that term then—who were trying to make a name for themselves in golf and weren't professional golfers were seen as taking advantage or trying to use the PGA Tour and LPGA Tour for their own benefit. That might have been the case then, but now it's completely flipped on its head. The professional tours need these influencers to bring in the demographic they're targeting.
TourCast Data: Transforming Player Interviews and Overcoming Superstition
When we say the floodgates are opening, that narrative used to be that they need us more than we need them. That's not the case anymore. I literally wouldn't be able to have meaningful interviews without the stats and data from TourCast. That is the very first thing I look at before I'm going to interview a player. Sometimes athletes can be a little sensitive, and if you can frame something they're not doing well as an opinion from someone who is a washed-up Division 2 volleyball player, they don't want to hear my opinion on whether their short game isn't as great as it usually is or as it was last season.
But if I can look at the stats and say the numbers are showing that your short game is behind where you were last week or last season, or your approach into the green has greatly improved even from yesterday, it gives them much less wiggle room to avoid telling me the truth. A lot of these golfers are quirky and don't want to share what's happening because they fear that if they say things out loud, they might lose whatever's working or give in to what's not working. So the stats really help me talk to the players on an even playing field where I'm saying I'm not calling you out and I don't care if you're playing well or not. That's not my job. My job is to ask you objectively what's going on, and your job is to answer as you see fit.
It takes away the emotion from the moment if I'm able to just say statistically and factually this is not going well, what's going on, and how are you going to work on it? It makes it much easier for them to be honest with me. Stats, analytics, and data are the core of everything I do with my interviews. It's funny talking about superstition. I remember season one of Full Swing where our first featured player went on to win the golf tournament, and the next week I had about five agents blowing up my inbox saying, "What about my guy? Why aren't you following him?" The locker room is very superstitious.
That happened to us with our walk and talks. When you guys watch CBS, every single player said no except Max Homa. Max did it for the first time for us in San Diego at the Farmers Insurance Open. He did the walk and talk, and I believe he birdied the hole. We thought that was as good as it was going to get. He then went on to win the tournament. The next week we had ten or fifteen guys saying, "Yeah, okay, fine, I'll do it. It must be the key."
Scratch's Second Screen Experience: Real-Time Data and the Manning Cast Model
I'm sure it's gotten easier still. We started with how we use TourCast. We have Scratch, which is a digital media brand and rights holders of the PGA Tour, but crucially, we're not a broadcaster, so we don't have live rights. We have a show that we do live every Monday called Dan on Golf. It's kind of like a live recap show streamed on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, and any other place you can think of.
Dan recaps the week in golf, interviews the winner, and does so better than competitors and other broadcast networks. There's a really ravenous audience for Dan's content. He brings a much younger, different perspective to it. It's not meant for the core fans. Dan has a lot more tattoos than Amanda has. We started trying to figure out how to do something during a tournament. Our show is a live recap show, so we went to the PGA Tour and pitched them on essentially a second screen experience. We said we wanted to do our version of the Manning cast. We wanted to sit Dan and his colleague in a studio, look at the tournament cast, and essentially tell everybody to watch the tournament live on CBS, but also have this on a second screen where we're just going to comment on stuff.
During the entire live broadcast, Dan is referencing the tournament cast. We have a picture in picture, live leaderboards, and he's looking at the stats trying to tell the story. Because he's not having to call live golf shots and letting the professionals do that, he's able to tease out really interesting storylines. We've been able to uncover a lot of very wonky stuff in the data for the tournament cast. The first time we did it, we had about 20,000 people watching his thing live while also watching it on the broadcast. The next day we recut the show and include all of the shots, the actual highlights of the shots in the moment, and his reactions. Tournament-winning putts are getting millions and millions of views because it's fun to put yourself in the shoes of a viewer and relive a great moment when you see a putt drop and the players celebrating and you see Dan and Ben jumping out of their seats celebrating.
We create this new hybrid where it's essentially a non-live broadcast feed of the golf tournament with a live component where we're able to tease out all of this data and make these moments that you already experienced once on the broadcast let you relive it again with a different set of context for a different audience across the entire social internet. That's the one thing we started as a test with the PGA Tour and they called us back the next week saying you guys do that again, that was great. We wouldn't be able to do it without all of the real-time data. Golf is a great sport for real-time data because there is time in between shots and there are so many variables that affect play. As you know, Amanda, being around these pro golfers, the margin for error is so thin. When we were pitching Full Swing, one of the slides in our deck that we pitched to Netflix was that the difference between a player who's in the top 10 in the world and not going to retain their card is one shot per round. That's the margin for error we're talking about.
All these players are elite. It's about how you find that difference. There was a great stat about Scotty Scheffler this year where he was short-sided less than any other player in golf. When you hit your second shot, your approach shot into the green, being short-sided means it's a tougher up and down. Scotty just by design is never short-siding himself and it was some massive difference, the gulf between him and the next best player in terms of level of short-sidedness. It just goes to explain his consistency because that's going to be a half shot per round. You add that up over the course of the season and all of a sudden he's rattled off four, five, six wins. We love that about golf. You can always tell the story with the numbers and unlike other sports, you can set the context in the moment.
Storytelling Through Data: Making Golf Compelling for Casual Fans
When the ball's flying through the air and you get the fans craning their neck, it's just heightening the drama for when it lands and you hear that crowd pop. The importance of doing that is to contextualize what you're seeing and why it's so impressive. I am a fun golfer. If I go out and shoot 100, I am happy. I typically don't even keep score at all. That's the person that I'm targeting. I think about my mom and her friends all the time when I do these interviews. What do they want to know about these players and what's going to keep them engaged when they're watching golf? If you're a golf hardcore, you're going to watch this no matter what. But if you're just a casual golfer and you're just getting into this because you've discovered golf through YouTube, through Bryson DeChambeau's YouTube channel or through Full Swing, we're going to have to be able to contextualize this in a way that makes it interesting for everybody.
That's the importance of data and statistics. For so long we saw that as the nerdy thing and now it's not. Now it's so essential in order to make what you're looking at really cool. It actually makes me think about even just a simple stat like are any of you Broncos fans in the room. Well, congrats on the run you guys are currently having. If you're not a Broncos fan, maybe you don't care about the winning streak that they're on currently. But you know what did make me care about it? The fact that they're the first team in NFL history to be on a nine-game winning streak while trailing in every single one of those games.
Right now all of a sudden you're thinking, maybe I do want to tune in and watch the Broncos because it's crazy that they're trailing in every game and find a way in the second half to come back and get this victory, and they might end up being in the Super Bowl this year. They're not doing it the easy way, so it's the same thing with our top players. Scotty Scheffler's winning everything, which is cool. We have to make it cool by explaining how he's winning everything. What is he doing that is so different and so fascinating, because the casual golfer is not just going to be glued to the TV just because Scotty Scheffler is in the mix once again.
The data is the data, right? Data is boring inherently by itself, but translating that to storytelling, which you both do through your various platforms, makes it really interesting. We had a panel last night with Cynthia Freeland and Greg Olson where they're talking about that with the NFL. It's the same thing with Tourcast. Tourcast is a great tool to translate that data into storytelling for the PGA Tour and for new platforms, just like NextGen Stats is for the NFL. Greg Olson's like a nerd when it comes to diving really deep on that stuff and really understanding pressure probability and all those things that you can translate all the downtime from an NFL game to really storytell to that end.
AI in Content Creation: From Voice Cloning to Automated Newsletters
So let's transition. This is a good transition. Tourcast is being used very widely by both of you. Let's talk about something no one in this room has heard about this week. It's called artificial intelligence, or AI. I'm sure no one's heard about that. I want to note really quickly that our partners at the PGA Tour are amazing. They were early adopters in AI. We're using generative AI to do things like automated play-by-play commentary and building virtual assistants to answer fan questions and exploring computer vision for next-generation shot tracking. I want to talk to you about how you use AI in your everyday work and the evolution of that.
So Chad, let's start with you. How do you use AI for creating efficiencies in content creation? We've experimented and used it in so many different ways that I'm even surprised when I hear a new use case. A lot of it's being driven not mandated top-down but really bottom-up from particularly our younger editors and producers. To that generation, it's just another tool. When I was coming up as a producer, I was living through that wave, that transition from film to digital. My first ever job, I was working for a director who was shooting on 35-millimeter film, and then we had this transition to digital. All of a sudden the barrier to creating amazing content went from having to afford the fancy lenses and the darkroom and all the photo processing to being able to do beautiful cinematography on a phone. My era was about shrinking that down to digital so anybody could capture a great image. It was just about the creativity to deploy it.
I think about AI the same way. It's just a tool, and it's our younger employees who are finding different ways to use it. Just last week, I was looking at a cut for a clip we were doing for another project. They had an all-AI narrator, and they had taken a bunch of videos and fed it through an AI processing thing for one of our hosts. The host hadn't come in to do their voiceover yet. Usually an editor would just temp a track in there and say something like, "Well, here we are on the fourth hole." But they had the actual host voice, and it was all AI. She came in and looked at it and asked, "Did we record this?" It sounded really good. It was great to hear it and be able to give notes on that cut in a more robust way.
We also have our Dan on Golf show, which is live for two hours every single Monday and has a ravenous fan base. I was thinking, why don't we have a newsletter? This is crazy. We have this big fan base. We're getting email subscribers. We don't have a newsletter. We don't promote anything. So we had a team go and build an AI newsletter that basically takes the transcript of the show and breaks down every single thing that was talked about. It goes out to the 90,000 people on the mailing list. If you missed that week's show, you've got the rundown with links out to a bunch of different places.
Now we've got a robust newsletter business that came out of nowhere. It's created and then approved by an editor, and we go in and give little notes. That's since expanded to our commerce team, so we have a whole commerce newsletter now that you can get from scratch every week. It's essentially recommendations from the editors, but it's aggregating social conversation about what people are talking about buying and using that data to power an AI-generated newsletter that's absolutely crushing all of its editorial-generated stuff in terms of throughput and people's actual ability to drive affiliate sales.
It's showing up in a bunch of different interesting ways, and I think like anything, it's just another creative tool. There's a fear. I live in Hollywood. I'm down in LA. I've made movies and TV shows, and there's a fear that it's going to ruin Hollywood or eliminate all the creativity. The younger generation doesn't see it that way. They just see it as another creative tool to help what they see in their mind come to life faster, which gives them time to polish, gives them time to be more ambitious, and ultimately I think great creative work comes out of giving the most amount of people the space to be as ambitious as possible with the stories they're trying to tell.
The gatekeeping of what it takes to tell ambitious stories has come so far down from how it used to be. To get access to the kind of equipment you needed to do a show like Full Swing, it was cost prohibitive. Now a creative person with the right idea can think really big and much bigger than they've ever been able to, and I think that's exciting.
Players Using AI: Scheduling, Training, and Breaking Down Defensive Guards
Yeah, Amanda, same question to you. From a broadcaster's perspective, I'm actually curious on this angle. You often get the inside scoop from players. Have you heard from any players on how they might be using AI to train or preview previous course statistics that they've had or anything like that?
Yeah, when I think about how players are using AI, I remember the first time we heard of a player hiring a full-time statistician onto their team. It was Brandt Snedeker, I believe it was 2013, and we were like, oh my God, he's so rich that he can afford a statistician. This is diva level stuff on the PGA Tour. What we came to realize very quickly was that he was way ahead of his time. He had a guy full time manually breaking down every single thing about every round that he played competitively on the PGA Tour, and then that dictated what he was going to work on the following week.
The progression of that then was, okay, a bunch of guys started to pay attention. They all started doing that and now they're actually using technology and AI to predict what golf courses are better for the players. Scheduling has been a big thing for these guys for a long time. All of their bodies are broken down like any professional athlete by the end of the season, but it's about how do I manage my energy and maximize my talents with the golf courses that suit my game most.
For some players who have told me, listen, their golf courses I have loved playing on my entire career. I was shocked to be told by AI or by my team that this course does not suit me. I should actually be taking this one out of the rotation and be putting another tournament in that I've never considered playing because the numbers just make more sense. That's one of the ways that you've seen the progress of technology and specifically AI.
I know it will shock you guys, but Bryson is probably the first player to openly talk about how AI helped him not only to win a tournament but win a major championship. He actually credited an AI company for helping him win the US Open, and he was using that on the range every single day before and after every round. There's also been AI being used at the Masters. That was one of the coolest pieces of technology.
I use technology and I use stats and analytics to create a more equal playing field between myself and the players so that we're taking emotion out of things. I was actually able to tap into exactly what yardages players were grinding on before and after their rounds during the Masters this year. So after every round, Bryson was very specific on honing a very specific yardage. I could see he's hitting 249 balls between 125 and 150 yards. That information is invaluable for me because as I'm doing a pre-round interview with him at Augusta National when they're as tight as they're gonna be, they don't wanna talk about anything. It feels like there's very little I can ask them that would be interesting to the viewer at home.
I can say, hey Bryson, I saw yesterday you hit 249 balls in a very specific yardage range. What were you trying to get out of that practice and how are we gonna see that work today? There's no wiggle room out of that. He has to acknowledge, yeah, I was grinding on that yardage because I've either tinkered with something in his bag overnight during the biggest week of the year, or he didn't feel comfortable out on the golf course for that, or he's working on a very specific shot that he thinks is gonna come into play on the weekend at the Masters.
Guys are using AI in a lot of ways, but selfishly as a broadcaster it's amazing to see AI being used in ways that we can break down those guards that players have. He's never gonna tell me, hey Amanda, you know I've really been working hard on this specific yardage. That's never going to happen. We have to find it out in our own ways and there's no way they can argue it when the numbers are right in front of all of us.
The Future of Golf: VR Experiences, Consumer-First Strategy, and Protecting Live Sports Rights
I'm gonna leave a couple more questions for me, but I just wanna know that we've got time. I'm gonna leave some time for questions at the end. So if anybody has questions, think about those now. We'll have some microphones coming. Let's talk about what's coming next. Let's talk about what the next step is in golf. Golf's popularity, as we've both noted here, is at an all-time high. We've got more people playing. We've got more people watching. We've got more technology incorporated into it.
So I'll start with you. Like where would you like to see golf continue to grow and evolve in technology, ways to bring fans closer to the game?
I think the key is bringing fans closer to the game. I love thinking about AI augmented reality. I love this idea of in maybe 10 years, someone at home can put themselves literally on the tee box on 17 at the Players on 16, and hear the crowds. I think that's the number one thing that we can always improve upon in terms of golf and allowing a fan to understand just how intense it is.
Actually, yesterday I was out at the pro-am for AWS re:Invent. It was really cool. They brought out some new technology that was being tested yesterday that we are likely going to be seeing out on the PGA Tour this upcoming season, which the tech nerd in me was obsessed with that. They brought out Dan Hicks and Bones Mackay to call golf shots, and then I did some post-round interviews after a specific hole. Every single amateur that I got to interview yesterday with their pro, they were like, my heart is beating out of my chest, I'm sweating. I can't believe this is what the players deal with every single hole every single day of their lives.
And I'm like, yes, that's going to make your enjoyment of viewing so much better now moving forward because you have this tiny example of what it's actually like to be in the game. It's funny because I don't think we really need that for NFL, right? Like none of us really want to know what it feels like to be tackled by the top edge rusher in the NFL. We kind of know that would hurt, we know they're big, we know they're fast. We do need that more in golf.
So I think it would be an amazing thing in 10 years from now for you to say, man, I wonder what it's like. I wonder how loud it is right there, right now, and for us to be able to contextualize that through technology, through progressive technology where you can kind of almost put yourself inside the ropes, maybe as a top player like Scotty Scheffler or maybe as your favorite player who isn't getting a Jake Knapp, right? The difference in what they're experiencing is night and day.
I think those are the really cool things that we love about golf that if you're a fan at home you don't necessarily get to see or you don't get to understand. I think being able to bring that to fans at home would be a game-changing thing for all of us. Yeah, I mean just that reminds me of we're doing season 4 of Full Swing right now and we're focusing on the Ryder Cup obviously. The Europeans worked with a VR company. There's a company called Golf Plus that makes a VR golf game for the Meta Quest headset.
They had the entire Bethpage built out for the Ryder Cup simulated in the game and so I was able to demo that alongside the European players. They had a full-time insult guy who they brought in to basically just they had done a bunch of research on each of the players and they're like this is what it's going to be like. They brought him into a broadcast booth like you would record VO and had this New York guy, hey you Rory, you know, just give him the business and every player and all kinds of just insults.
You put on that headset and immediately you're transported into this arena. I played Bethpage Black. I lived in New York for a while. I used to take the Long Island Railroad with my golf clubs out of Penn Station out there when I was younger. Just seeing the build, you can't prepare yourself for what it's like to step on that tee, but that's the closest facsimile, you know, with the VO insult guy shouting in your ear. That actually got me obsessed with that game.
So I ended up buying a Quest and starting that game. Now my 5-year-old likes to play on the driving range in our living room and hit golf balls and they like golf is in a virtual reality. By the way, his move looks pretty good like for swinging with a club in VR. So I think one it's about creating consumer opportunities and golf in general, especially the professional side of the game, is very focused. It has a very healthy and very strong demographic that marketers that people attend conferences like this like to reach like it's key business decision makers, it's CTOs, it's CIOs, it's CMOs, things like that.
But golf's got this consumer boom that's happening and I don't think pro golf has done good enough job at embracing that younger audience that necessarily aren't key business decision makers but are just sports fans who maybe play golf on the weekends and that's all they build their life around it. I mean golf has become a lifestyle for millions and millions of people. It's what they dress, you know, in our kind of culture there's not a lot of chances you get to go put on an outfit, but playing golf, you know, I know a lot of guys that will spend the night and lay out their clothes and not doing that for a job interview. I'll tell you how much.
So I think as golf becomes a lifestyle for more people, it's not one monolithic audience. You know, you can't think about it as like the golf audience. You have to think about it as a bunch of collections of different identities around the game. There's the casual audience. There's people who like to go out and crush a few White Claws with their buddies that turns into now I'm getting a little more serious. Oh, now I'm going on a golf trip.
The Vegas guys trip is now turned into a golf trip across the world, you know, across the US. And then as you get deeper and deeper in the game, the game has a lot more to give, you know.
Traveling and trying to play these iconic courses, you start thinking about architecture. You come to PGA Tour events and become a fan. Your game gets better and your consumer habits change. I think the sport in general as a league can do a lot better at thinking consumer first. If you go to a PGA Tour event now, and this is going to change under its new leadership, you know you can't get access to these fancy hospitality areas unless you're an invited guest of AWS. You should ask Tyler afterwards for a badge. But think about the other sports experiences. Formula One was just here in Vegas two weeks ago, and if you're a consumer and you want an elevated hospitality experience, you can just go and execute basically exercise your rights as a fan to buy your way into the coolest places and be a part of it. I think golf has a huge opportunity to do that.
I think the fact that tournaments take over a town for a whole week and create different moments of programming to reach all those different audiences is significant. I think what the tour is trying to do at making it more competitive, more scarce, and more simple is going to pay dividends as the league has to basically understand that you can't just live on speaking of CMOs and CTOs only. You've got to reach big sports fans. So how do you make the league as competitive as possible? You make the scarcity such that every single shot matters, and that's what makes the majors so good in golf.
Amanda calls half of them, and my favorite one matters. Every shot matters at the Masters. The whole week is this buildup, and I think that is because it's the most fan-first event in golf. As crazy as that sounds, and as inaccessible as Augusta National can be as a fan, it's the greatest fan experience. You're free of phones, you're walking, they give you every piece of information, it's a beautiful place. I think that what they've been able to do to capture fan attention and then capture the world's attention during the week of the tournament is something you're going to see more and more out of the PGA Tour.
My job at our company is to help continue to put golf into pop culture and continue to push its relevance and make it part of that fabric of what young people are talking about, just like the latest movie release or the latest record release. They're talking about golf now, and that's an amazing place. If you would have asked me ten years ago if that's where we would have been when I was trying to pitch Full Swing, I remember the Netflix executives asked, "Be honest, is there any drama in pro golf?" I said, "Well, sometimes people break the rules, they get in arguments over lies and stuff like that." Then of course year one we have the LIV schism and the most drama of any sport, probably.
I'm really bullish on the future of golf. I think the uniting of the consumer boom that we're seeing with what's happening in the pro game, all enabled by great technology that helps casual fans understand what's happening, is key. Ultimately that's what simplicity is. There's no simpler sport than soccer. Ball goes in net, you get a point. How do you make golf easy to follow? How do you set the stage? Because you have all this downtime to build context and build story. I don't think there's anything more exciting than watching a ball flying through the air and seeing the next crane and that pop when a ball lands next to the hole when it really matters. It's all about the storytelling and the context that you set to make those moments matter and have more of those throughout a professional season.
The new leadership I'm talking about, our new CEO came from the NFL. He was Roger Goodell's right hand man. I can't imagine a better person. This guy has seen it all, he's done it all. He understands the business of the biggest sport in the world, really. The NFL is a different beast than anything else, so to have that big of an idea and understanding of what it takes to make things work and then come into the PGA Tour, I think he's going to bring a lot of changes very quickly in a very positive way.
This is the last thing to add on that. When I first pitched them on Full Swing, it was actually funny you mentioned 2011 when Amanda first started working for PGA Tour.com. I was also down there in 2011. The PGA Tour smartly was trying to get smarter about digital, and I was working at a digital media company called Vox Media back then. I led a delegation down there to help them rethink how to reach a digital audience. At the time it was about how do we reach millennials. Now millennials have got a bunch of gray hair. Now we're old. But the two things I pitched them was you should start a new channel, a new digital channel that can carry a lot more voice than you would be able to do without that PGA Tour badge, but give it rights and create a new brand around that.
The second thing is you can't ride Tiger's coattails forever, so you've got to turn your next generation of stars into stars. These are players that haven't had the media walls built around them in the same way that Tiger has, and they grew up sort of on social media and they're a little more open to stuff. They said no to both things and went on and created Scratch, which we now own, which is funny. Then it took another nine years to finally talk them into doing Full Swing. But that's ultimately what the tour has to do: turn these amazing athletes that they have into superstars. The way to do that is more access, more context, bring fans closer. I think golf has a huge advantage in some ways over the NFL because players aren't wearing helmets.
Making it easy to create a superstar golfer. If you look at the most famous athletes in history and the richest athletes in history, three or four of them are golfers: Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer, Tiger Woods, and Phil Mickelson. They're some of the highest-grossing athletes in history, and it's because their faces are on camera up close every single weekend. I thought we were going to go with Messi and Beckham. I thought we were going all soccer at that time, but those guys are pretty famous too and doing all right.
There's a huge advantage there, and I think the tour has the ingredients it needs to bridge the gap into the future, especially as we look at the next iteration of where golf will be consumed starting in the 2030s and in this new over-the-top ecosystem of reaching fans where they are. It couldn't be more exciting to be in golf. I'm lucky I get to hang out with you guys and Amanda. She's always been one of my favorites and has been a part of Full Swing since season one, making us look smart. We're honestly just excited to be here and happy to answer your questions.
As a golf fan myself, I am incredibly encouraged and excited about the future of golf. It's awesome to hear both of your perspectives. Someone has to hold it down for the golf casual fan, and I guess it's going to be me. You're the most important audience. We have a couple of minutes left for any questions. If you have a question, please raise your hands and someone will come with microphones in the back to deliver them.
I was wondering if we could revisit your comments about the LIV schism. It seems like a lot of golf strategy that you've discussed today is about capturing saturated markets in geographies that already are aware of the game. How do you balance that with expansion into new territory? I think golf is growing internationally as well, not as much or as rapidly as it's growing in the US, but it's definitely growing internationally. I don't run the PGA Tour. I have a company that has the rights with the tour, so I can't say what the PGA Tour thinks.
I personally think that the Olympics is going to be the greatest advertisement for global golf over the next ten years. We have a podcast where we sit around after a round of golf and talk about what the best chance of being the fifth major is, and I would say that's the Olympics. I think you're going to see golf in the Southern Hemisphere, which you don't really get to see other than this weekend at Royal Melbourne. You get international audiences wrapped up in the context of nationalism and tribalism, which creates fandom. It's easy to make it binary: us versus them. That's what makes the Ryder Cup so compelling, and I think the Olympics is going to do more for global golf than any other initiative.
Augusta National has obviously made it a huge priority to reach out to other territories. They have the Asia Pacific Amateur Championship, which I do every year, and the Latin America Championship. You are literally seeing the growth in places like Oman, Iraq, and Iran. We were just in Dubai in the UAE, and golf is really starting to catch on and expand there. That's certainly helping, but to your point, I think what LIV has done very well is bring golf to golf-hungry places. Australia is obsessed with their golf. The sandbelt has some of the top golf courses in the world, and the PGA Tour doesn't even visit it unless we're going there for a President's Cup.
LIV said they're going to go back to Australia and New Zealand and give these people what they want, and it's by far their most lucrative golf tournament. So there are clearly places where the PGA Tour needs to do a better job of continuing to grow and hit those fan bases who feel they love the game more than anybody and are asking why they're being deprived of a professional tournament. But to that same point, you see the NFL and how they're growing. You can't do it all at once. You have to progressively pick and choose where you're going to scale and grow. I think as we're seeing this unprecedented growth right here in the United States, it would be a big miss to not continue to hit the United States as hard as possible right now so we don't lose those people who are so newly interested in the game.
You mentioned saturation. I think we may have a saturation of golfers or golf-curious people in the United States, but the PGA Tour needs to gain share on these other leagues. That's the ultimate goal: how much of those thirty-five to forty million golf-curious or golf-interested people can you turn into regular viewers? That's the opportunity. Yes, the golfer market might be saturated, but the share of that audience that's tuning into the PGA Tour still has tons of upside. The other thing I'd point out is the DP World Tour and their embrace of national opens, and you've seen Rory really make that a priority now that he's got his Grand Slam and he's won the Masters.
Playing in India, playing in Ireland, playing in Scotland—India was an unbelievable win for the entire game of golf. That was remarkable. You see this elevation, and especially as the PGA Tour considers what the schedule is going to look like, you could see that in the fall when the NFL is taking all of the spotlight in the United States, some of the best players in the world traveling to play abroad in these national opens and the re-elevation of national opens. I still want to predict that the Olympics is going to do more than any of it, because I think it's going to mean more to these players to win the Olympics now that you've looked at the winners we've had—Justin Rose, Xander, Scotty. So anyway, my guess on what's the fifth major in twenty years is going to be the Olympics. I think we have time for maybe one more question and we've got to wrap up.
As a fellow golf enthusiast, I've followed the story of Grant getting the sponsor's exemption to the Barracuda, and his decline because he couldn't put it on his channel. I'm curious, with the success of the Creator Classic and involving these guys in those events, is the tour warming up to that idea? I mean, what better way to get more people to tune into the main broadcast than to have some of these really exceptional creators involved?
I will play devil's advocate here for a second. One, I think that plays into what I was saying about how the demand has changed. Grant doesn't need the PGA Tour. The fact that he turned down an exemption, which is such a highly coveted spot, because it couldn't go on his channel and he wants to elevate his channel, the fact that he could turn that down says a lot about where we're at in the game of golf. On the flip side, the rights holders need to be protected. You would never see the NFL give up the rights to a game to an influencer. It just can't happen. You have to protect your brand. That's not to say that you can't bring in influencers and people who have a huge following into an NFL game or into a PGA Tour event, but you think about it—CBS Sports pays hundreds of millions of dollars to be the rights holders of these events. I would be furious if all of a sudden someone's given a spot and they are now broadcasting the same tournament that my network has paid hundreds of millions of dollars for and has invested countless hours and so much technology to bring to the fan.
I'm not saying that's the right answer, but I'm saying that's where we're at right now. There has to be more massaging in terms of the landscape. You can't just say, "Hey Grant, we're going to give you an exemption and by the way we're going to turn the keys over to something that this whole network has invested their entire livelihood on." It just doesn't work that way yet. I'd be interested to hear your perspective on how do you get there? What does that look like? I don't know, but as a traditional broadcaster, I don't love that idea of these guys coming in and just being able to do whatever they want. What's the point then in us paying what we pay to be the exclusive rights holder of that tournament?
It's always a good fan-first thing to say, "Let's protect the corporate rights holder." No, I'm kidding, but it matters. Protecting the brand matters. That's completely the underpinning of the whole model of the sport, so you can't break those contracts. I think that the tour would have let him post on his channel like a recap of the whole event. They would have said, "You can have cameras filming. We're going to give you all of our footage. You can have your guys right inside the ropes or right outside the ropes, whatever video you make playing in this thing, you can have your highlights."
They did that for the Creator Classic, so I think that's accurate for the Barracuda. So who knows why he said no. It might have been that he just liked the attention and wanted to see if it was something that his fans were excited about. I think he wanted to live stream during the tournament. That was the break. He's like, "A live simulcast on my channel," and you're like, "You can't break the model for any influencer." The tour did change their rules about social media posts. Now, when there was a big complaint when the live thing happened that players didn't have the ability to post their highlights on their own channels, that's all changed. They can now. That narrative gets trotted out a lot, but it is completely true that if Rory McIlroy had a YouTube channel, he could post his highlights on that channel the day after. None of those guys are focused on their YouTube because they're trying to win golf tournaments, which maybe they should be more focused on it. Look what Bryson's done. Some are taking it more seriously.
So anyway, I think we're in this interesting place where a guy like Grant doesn't necessarily need the PGA Tour. But is a guy like Grant going to be around in twenty years? Who knows. The PGA Tour has to be around in twenty years. That's an existential question for them. How do they balance reaching those new fans and getting people interested in these smaller events that could use an audience boost for sure, like the Barracuda?
And do it in a way that doesn't break the model. I think the NFL has done the best job out of any sport of bringing in influencers and people from the outside while still protecting the brand, protecting the shield. There is no sports organization that protects their own product more than the NFL. The amount of rules that there are—even as a sideline reporter for the NFL, I'm not allowed to post a lot of things from the sidelines. The NFL, even though we're the rights holders and I'm there broadcasting the game for CBS for an NFL game, I'm not allowed to do 90% of the stuff that I'm allowed to do on the PGA Tour.
I think it's easy to say that just because golf is a little bit smaller and we're obviously trying to reach a bigger audience, you should get in more. I don't know if that's necessarily the truth when it comes to being inside the ropes during tournament time. Everything outside of that is totally fair game, and everything you want to collect during those times and then post after, I think is fair game as well. So I think it's just that balance.
Live sports is still the underpinning of the entire media ecosystem essentially, and it's the one place where we get as close as possible to monoculture these days. It used to be we all sat around and watched Seinfeld, but live sports is the underpinning of this entire ecosystem. The live component has to be sacrosanct and has to be protected, but you also have to surround that with stuff so people understand what the context is, what makes it exciting, what makes it thrilling, because you cannot recreate the excitement of live sports when amazing sports things happen.
That's what we always talk about. Not coming back to Full Swing, but like Matt Fitzpatrick winning the US Open—the greatest sports moment I've ever stood and watched because we've been following him all season and he was such a long shot to win. Sports has this way of writing stories that you could never script, and I think that's what gives it its relevance. That's why we're sitting here at this amazing conference talking about live sports because ultimately it is the thing that you can't write.
People, in a world where more and more feeds are being customized for you and everybody's content is customized for them, and that's only going to get more engagement driven by AI content creation and customizing and all those algorithms—the fact that we can all share an experience watching live sports is one of the few things we have left where we can do that. So thank you both for being here. Chad, thank you. Amanda, thank you so much for being here.
Unfortunately, we're out of time for questions. I would talk about golf all day if I could, but we are moving on to the next session. So thank you all for coming who are in the audience and thanks all for coming who are watching this on demand. Hi mom, thanks for watching. If you're interested in finding out more about the PGA Tour, there are some definite spots around there you should come check out and learn more about AWS and the PGA Tour. Thank you guys. Thanks everybody.
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