Hi Pavel, I'm not part of the DEV team so I'll try to give you my "third party" opinion.
You basically told someone, a stranger you likely don't know, that they have no value (!!). If I were to entertain your logic I'd ask "how do you know?". And even if they truly have no value in your eyes (grotesque way to address a human being which has inherent value by... being a human being), what made you decide to look down on them?
Regarding the code of conduct, literally the first point of the standards in the code of conduct is Using welcoming and inclusive language, which that is not in my opinion.
ps. a 17 year-old soon to be a bachelor in computer science seems pretty badass to me, "regular" 17 year olds on this side of the Atlantic ocean are definitely still in high school
Hello rhymes.
Mind you, I didn't tell a stranger, or any person, that they have "no value". That's how you read it, that's not what I wrote. I'm sorry if I made it so ambigous.
I wrote that AMA by that person has no value.
How do you think I could write this in more welcoming and inclusive way?
Also, what makes you think I look down on them? I don't think my AMA would have any value either. That's partly why I don't start one.
Got it Pavel, thanks for clarifying, I think the confusion stems from the exchange between you and @laurieontech
.
How do you think I could write this in more welcoming and inclusive way?
Well, you just did in a way :)
Also, what makes you think I look down on them?
I don't, in the context of assigning inherent value to a human being I thought you were doing that.
I'm glad we had this exchange!
I don't think my AMA would have any value either. That's partly why I don't start one.
It might have value to other people, you never know. We tend to think AMAs are just for exceptional industry leaders but I see a 17 year old with a bachelor in CS and a self evident enthusiasm to be exceptional as well.
Yours is a legitimate question though, I'm glad we cleared that up.
It's pronounced Diane. I do data architecture, operations, and backend development. In my spare time I maintain Massive.js, a data mapper for Node.js and PostgreSQL.
I think that's an uncharitable characterization of Pavel's comments -- he wasn't talking about any value or lack thereof inherent to Mikol himself, but specifically about the justification for an AMA. His original phrasing was quite direct but I don't see it as aggressive or offensive.
In which case, why not simply not participate, and see what value arises if any? I'd argue making a statement writing it off as a useless post at best also added no value, and at worst detracted from discourse. I don't know where I fall on the code of conduct decision, and it doesn't matter because it's not up to me, but it's hard to read as anything but mean-spirited.
It's pronounced Diane. I do data architecture, operations, and backend development. In my spare time I maintain Massive.js, a data mapper for Node.js and PostgreSQL.
In the circumstances I think "what kinds of questions are you expecting, given your lack of relevant experience" is a legitimate question! I think a lot of people are leaping to the conclusion that Pavel's writing Mikol off; to me that looks like an opportunity for Mikol to show what he's bringing to an AMA. It's "ask me anything", not "throw me a bunch of softballs". There should be room for challenges as long as people don't get actively antagonistic, which I don't think Pavel was.
Software dev at Netflix | DC techie | Conference speaker | egghead Instructor | TC39 Educators Committee | Girls Who Code Facilitator | Board game geek | @laurieontech on twitter
I feel my response to the initial comment explains exactly what the issue is. You agreed that your intent was, in part, to point out a lack of value in the AMA posted. As another commenter mentioned below, there was no reason for this comment. If you don't see value for yourself, don't participate. The need to do so and point out a lack of value is not helpful to the conversation and is not welcoming or inclusive.
Had your response confirmed that your intention was to ask what questions the OP thought they might have interesting answers to provide, I imagine the comments would not have been marked.
If I may just take a slight tangent from the matter under discussion.. I just wanted to express how impressed I am in seeing how maturely this community handles it's issues.
I'm a new member and it's very encouraging to see little hiccups being handled with such consideration.
I'm a self-taught Front End & JS Dev and professional learner with accessibility expertise. I'm passionate about breaking down concepts into relatable concepts, making it more approachable.
Well it’s both. I’m really curious what the person expects to see as a reaction; and I don’t see much to offer. I’m sorry it disappoints you. True, credentials by themselves don’t add value, however I don’t see anything adding value here at all.
Maybe you didn't specifically say the person doesn't add value, but someone is brave enough to do an AMA and you told them that what you see from them doesn't add value? That is simply your opinion. There are hundreds of thousands of people on this platform and there are so many people that person could help. But as we know from basic human psychology, one negative comment holds more weight than several positive ones.
I'm not a DEV employee, but I am an active member. My interpretation of the DEV CoC is that it prides itself on sensitivity, and this was an insensitive comment. Results matter, not your intention. Here's what standards they uphold that I personally don't think you brought:
Showing empathy towards other community members
Using welcoming and inclusive language
Hope this helps. When one forgets empathy when posting something they deem as constructive, it ruins it's ability to be helpful.
To wrap this up: I'm glad we had this discussion, and I'm surprised by amount of people reacted.
I'm glad that a lot of people say that the wording is bad, but the message is legitimate.
I'm disappoined that a lot of people say that I should have stayed silent.
Thanks. I'll try to word my comments in a more positive, inclusive and encouraging way as you suggested; though I think I'll just get more warnings and violations anyway.
Hi Pavel, I'm not part of the DEV team so I'll try to give you my "third party" opinion.
You basically told someone, a stranger you likely don't know, that they have no value (!!). If I were to entertain your logic I'd ask "how do you know?". And even if they truly have no value in your eyes (grotesque way to address a human being which has inherent value by... being a human being), what made you decide to look down on them?
Regarding the code of conduct, literally the first point of the standards in the code of conduct is
Using welcoming and inclusive language, which that is not in my opinion.ps. a 17 year-old soon to be a bachelor in computer science seems pretty badass to me, "regular" 17 year olds on this side of the Atlantic ocean are definitely still in high school
Hello rhymes.
Mind you, I didn't tell a stranger, or any person, that they have "no value". That's how you read it, that's not what I wrote. I'm sorry if I made it so ambigous.
I wrote that AMA by that person has no value.
How do you think I could write this in more welcoming and inclusive way?
Also, what makes you think I look down on them? I don't think my AMA would have any value either. That's partly why I don't start one.
Got it Pavel, thanks for clarifying, I think the confusion stems from the exchange between you and @laurieontech .
Well, you just did in a way :)
I don't, in the context of assigning inherent value to a human being I thought you were doing that.
I'm glad we had this exchange!
It might have value to other people, you never know. We tend to think AMAs are just for exceptional industry leaders but I see a 17 year old with a bachelor in CS and a self evident enthusiasm to be exceptional as well.
Yours is a legitimate question though, I'm glad we cleared that up.
I think that's an uncharitable characterization of Pavel's comments -- he wasn't talking about any value or lack thereof inherent to Mikol himself, but specifically about the justification for an AMA. His original phrasing was quite direct but I don't see it as aggressive or offensive.
In which case, why not simply not participate, and see what value arises if any? I'd argue making a statement writing it off as a useless post at best also added no value, and at worst detracted from discourse. I don't know where I fall on the code of conduct decision, and it doesn't matter because it's not up to me, but it's hard to read as anything but mean-spirited.
In the circumstances I think "what kinds of questions are you expecting, given your lack of relevant experience" is a legitimate question! I think a lot of people are leaping to the conclusion that Pavel's writing Mikol off; to me that looks like an opportunity for Mikol to show what he's bringing to an AMA. It's "ask me anything", not "throw me a bunch of softballs". There should be room for challenges as long as people don't get actively antagonistic, which I don't think Pavel was.
I feel my response to the initial comment explains exactly what the issue is. You agreed that your intent was, in part, to point out a lack of value in the AMA posted. As another commenter mentioned below, there was no reason for this comment. If you don't see value for yourself, don't participate. The need to do so and point out a lack of value is not helpful to the conversation and is not welcoming or inclusive.
Had your response confirmed that your intention was to ask what questions the OP thought they might have interesting answers to provide, I imagine the comments would not have been marked.
If I may just take a slight tangent from the matter under discussion.. I just wanted to express how impressed I am in seeing how maturely this community handles it's issues.
I'm a new member and it's very encouraging to see little hiccups being handled with such consideration.
When someone followed up with you, you said this:
Maybe you didn't specifically say the person doesn't add value, but someone is brave enough to do an AMA and you told them that what you see from them doesn't add value? That is simply your opinion. There are hundreds of thousands of people on this platform and there are so many people that person could help. But as we know from basic human psychology, one negative comment holds more weight than several positive ones.
I'm not a DEV employee, but I am an active member. My interpretation of the DEV CoC is that it prides itself on sensitivity, and this was an insensitive comment. Results matter, not your intention. Here's what standards they uphold that I personally don't think you brought:
Hope this helps. When one forgets empathy when posting something they deem as constructive, it ruins it's ability to be helpful.
Thank you for the input. How do you think I could express the same message when being empathic and using welcoming and inclusive language?
To wrap this up: I'm glad we had this discussion, and I'm surprised by amount of people reacted.
I'm glad that a lot of people say that the wording is bad, but the message is legitimate.
I'm disappoined that a lot of people say that I should have stayed silent.
Thanks. I'll try to word my comments in a more positive, inclusive and encouraging way as you suggested; though I think I'll just get more warnings and violations anyway.
And I never received any responses to my questions from the original AMA starter.