loading...

Discussion

markdown guide
 

According to my mom, I'm installing Windows. 🤷‍♂️

 
 

According to everyone, I can fix their computers. If only they knew I can barely fix mine when it fails.

 

I expect everyone to be at least electrical engineer and devops. I don't care about your coding.

 

HTML & CSS are not programming languages. Also frontend is easy and not time consuming.

 

They are not programming languages. Front end is easy as long as it’s not too complex. After that, it becomes a challenge indeed.

 

HTML is a markup language. Javascript is a full on language. There was a time when front end development was second class, but today there is no real distinction between front end and back end in terms of skillsets.

They are all programming languages. Some are declarative, some are imperative. A declarative language like CSS doesn't make it "less than" or not "full on".

I didn't say CSS is less than. It has its function as a cascading style sheet in the context of HTML. HTML itself is a markup system for content, even if ironically the content these days is delivered through REST API more often than not. Front end development usually involves some kind of framework like Angular, Vue, or React. Each technology has its place. However, if you only know HTML and CSS I don't know how you would fare in a modern web application development environment.

I'm currently trying to self teach myself and if you wouldn't mind answering a beginner's question, what should I learn besides HTML and CSS? I had planned JS as my third lesson.

JS is a good place to go next! You'll be able to use it almost immediately with the HTML/CSS knowledge you have, and, in addition, you'll be able to start doing back-end stuff on Node. If possible, get going with TypeScript -- there's a little extra overhead, but it will (a) help you to make fewer mistakes and (b) set you up for Angular or React (and you can use it effectively with Vue too, and on the backend!)

Just dropping into add that you can solve FizzBuzz with just HTML and CSS.

 

If your definition of a programming language is "structured text which represents machine instructions", then, yes, HTML and CSS are programming languages. But, instead of imperatively saying "add an element X to parent Y", it's written declaratively as <Y><X></X></Y>. And, since there's no branching instructions in HTML, it's not turning complete.

Funny enough, under the same definition, markdown is also considered a programming language, meaning I just wrote a little program 🙂

 

And if my grandma had wheels she would have been a bike.

 

Yes - they aren't. To reduce misunderstanding you could translate what these acronyms stand for.

Hyper Text Markup Language and Cascading Style Sheet
Where did you see programming language here?

If they are programming languages then please show me how you will implement factorial algorithm with only HTML and CSS and I will agree with you.

 

HTML & CSS aren't programming languages. They're computer languages, but not programming languages.

Same with things like JSON, markdown, etc. They're no less valuable for that, and the web wouldn't be the web without them.

 

I came on to say “CSS is easy”.

I find it harder than learning Haskell or C 😀

 

CSS is extremely difficult, specially to programmers, because it's a completely different way of thinking. At the same time, it's an extremely elegant language and I wish more programming languages had that same level of elegance.

What makes it a different way of thinking, the declarative nature of the language? Think that’s the right term.

Not only that, but also the non-linear aspect, I'd say.

 

HTML and CSS are not programming languages. Front end is, however, just as time consuming as back-end.

 

I feel some recruiters think if they're hiring a web developer, they must be good at that AND:

  • Mobile app development
  • DevOps
  • Design (for full-stack web dev mostly)
  • And God knows what else! 🤷‍♂️

I sincerely think they're in a great misconception. Come on man, I'm good at web dev that's why I want to _dev_elop a _web_site! I'm not good at Kubernetes!

 

:) But I think this is the Job of Full Stack Developer. Isn't ?

 

Yes, but also to varying degrees. I started in FE, but I'm also very comfortable building a backend codebase. I'm weaker with DB and devops.

Don't get me wrong, I can stand-up a DB and deploy kubernetes containers, but when you get into the deep understanding issues I lean on my teammates that have devoted more time to those disciplines.

Full Stack doesn't mean "knows everything at an advanced level" it just means you can be productive and contribute at any level (while knowing when to call for backup and not spinning your wheels when someone else could help you get there faster)

Full Stack doesn't mean "knows everything at an advanced level" it just means you can be productive and contribute at any level

Highly agree with this. Thanks for your input :)

I’m going to use this phrase instead of full stack :)

 

Well, for me as a front-end dev, all of those skills just doesn't make sense!

That's what I originally thought about backend technologies. However, as I move into increasingly difficult frontend topics I've learned that having experience in Node, NPM, custom APIs, and other server-side is extremely beneficial.

 

Before I started working with React, I was an ecommerce (Magento) frontend developer. At the time, when I was trying to explain frontend development to a person that doesn't know much about programming, it usually went like this.

Person: "So what is it that you do at your job?"


Me: "I develop websites, I turn design into code and make sure everything looks, and sometimes function, as expected.


Person: "So you're a designer, then?"

 

Basically another version of the typical

A: "So what do you do?"

B: "I'm a programmer"

A: "Oh, so you fix computers and stuff?"

B: "No, I... uh... just forget it."

 

Something similar happened to me with an older neighbour.

A: "So what do you do?"

B: "I'm a programmer"

A: "Oh great! Can you fix my TV?"

That was back when CRT TVs were still a thing.

It's not like I blame people for it, but it does make me wonder why nobody cares what programemrs really do yet I don't exactly see many people asking a carpenter to fix their car.

 

When I say I am a web developer my little cousin thinks I am a spider man 🕸

 

When you start to catch up on all the JS frameworks, your cousin actually turns right :)

 
 

"Sooo... you can hack a Facebook account, right?"

 

People often treat web application development as something inferior to making desktop software or mobile application.

I honestly don't know why.

 

Yeah. I think it used to be like that. But nowadays it is just as complex as backend development

 

"So... I hear you write websites. Can you make me an app?"

People always assume, at least in my cases, that web development = native app development...

 

Well, if you know React you can say Yes :)

 

Even if you can build a hybrid app, there is still loads of app-specific weirdness to deal with. You definitely don't know how to do it until you've tried it

 

Googling is most important skill to have and it really is❤️

 

I wasn't hired, Google was hired.

 

Its not completely true, I am an experienced googler 🤣

Bro you need to stop, or I will stop learning Node and react!

No please don't stop on my account, truth is I have been doing this a long time and I couldn't remember it all, there is just no way, but I can remember the topic or the right questions (the secret of success in programming, ask the computer the right question), so I use Google as it is a tool to get such answers, you as a programmer are expected to use the right tools for the job, brains often degrade over time.

 
 
 

I know HTML, time to hack NASA

 

That "front-end" is easier than "back-end".

 

That "front-end" is "front-end". Like, seriously, if you're managing application state, you're writing back-end code, even if it runs in the browser.

 

That it is taught in college. Bye. 👋

 

It’s weird that the web has been around for a million years and colleges still treat it like a passing fad.

 

Honestly, most courses that are taught in computer science courses are more or less of no use at all. I think the only relevant ones I was taught at my college were ds/algo and databases, which were very basic themselves (only oracle SQL server in DB. Nothing about scaling, NRDBMS, heck not even some other RDBMS like postgres .) I wish we were taught so much more, but for now, college looks like a necessary hurdle you have to jump through to even get a job and nothing more ( in my country at least )

Weird, when I did some database/RDBMS courses at the university almost 20 years ago we used PostgreSQL. Reasons:

  1. Gratis
  2. Most SQL standard conforming RDBMS
  3. Extensive featureset

So it was basically the most neutral RDBMS out there, and still is. It was about understanding SQL and RDBMS concepts, not learning Oracle, Sybase, or even PostgreSQL specifically.

 

Yeah, I agree and also I think we're just in college for around 3-4 years but our career spans like for decades and we never can depend just on this couple years of college to know every thing in the industry. So, we always have to self teach ourselves.

 

Hrm, I graduated in 2014 and studied modern web development at the time, JavaScript, JQuery and CSS, LAMP stack were all covered alongside typical computer science topics. My university is top <10 in the UK.

That said, this is only my anecdotal experience, my opinion is also too that universities are considerably less vocational than other options, but the debate is still relevant: should they be?

 

I agree. It's so strange how many universities only focus on OOP, systems programming, etc (which are very important) but barely paying any attention to the massive shift to the web in software development. It's not like it's anything new.

 

Web development is the core of software engineering

 

Please explain what you mean for me. I started learning programming 20+ years ago from reading library books and a computer that had no internet for like the first year I had it. I got lucky to have the computer in the first place, but the web was even rarer and only suburban people could afford it and web development was just barely out of it's infancy. Even today where there are web apps everywhere there are exponentially more desktop apps. Most of the software I write and use has nothing to do with the web and even though, yes, I use the web to do research for software development; it's rare it has anything to do with it. I personally refuse to use web apps for things that have nothing to do with the web unless I have no other choice and it's something for legal or responsibility things. I try to open a browser as little as possible with the exception of research and a small amount of time daily I allot myself for free time.
If anything software engineering is at the core of web development, not the other way around.
This was not a rhetorical question, I really want to know what you mean as I can't fathom what it might be.

 

HTML & CSS are not programming languages

 

HTML itself is not turing complete. So it’s technically not a programming language. BUT when you mix CSS AND HTML they can be arguably turing complete.

 

I've never understood this argument. Where did the idea a programming language has to be turing complete to be a programming language, come from 😄

A good example is agda. Agda is a total language, its functions always terminate and cannot return a value other than the type specified. This property makes it non-turing complete.

I would still call it a programming language. There are many other examples.

I think Turing completeness is more important when determining if a language is a ‘general’ programming language as opposed to domain specific languages.

 

CSS especially, computations and variables and a limited form of logic.

 
 

They're not, and I don't see why that even matters. C++ isn't a natural language. Assembly isn't a markup language. French isn't a formal language. Cuneiform isn't a spoken language.

 

Can't be a programmer if you don't know a programming language.

So? Not every websites needs to be programmed. Plenty of people spend quite some effort to program tools which you can use to develop a website, without programming.
And there's a difference between developing the CMS and developing the layout and styling.

I'm not saying it's bad. Just that people want the title of the programmer as soon as they learn HTML and it rubs them the wrong way when you say that HTML is not a real programming language.

 

What you do with HTML and CSS is not programming, thus they are not programming languages.

Otherwise, as some have pointed out, markdown is also a programming language.

 

"So, that means you can fix my printer, right?"

 
 

The main misconception I recall was when I said "I'm a web developer..." The response was "Oh... You make websites". But you can't see their eye's looking for an exit. #boring #whereisthebar

So generally, a lack of interest.

 

That complex code is better and you are better by making complex things.

 

TL;DR It's easy.
Commonly hear it's easier than "X", I usually respond with well you do this then and I'll do your thing instead... I especially hear easier compared to other development... I've done various things in my life (outside of tech too), it's all hard especially if you care about improving your skills and doing it right.

 

"I need to change the 'time sent' on an email that I've already sent... You can do that for me can't you?"

 
 

As someone who does email for a living. I feel this comment.

 

I'm really bothered from those to believe that the front-end is just some HTML/javascript and there is no complexity in this. Believe me, there are many of them out there.

I'm a full-stack engineer, I've been to both sides. Front-end is equaly important to the back-end and over the time, more and more business logic is passing from back to the front (Graphql for example).

A lot can be written here but I will not go any further. Good topic for discussion though!

In the same manner, we could perhaps say JSON is a programming language, and YAML is a programming language., none of which is not true.

 

That web dev is lesser / bigger than other kinds of development. Other developers often look down on web devs, thinking "oh, it's all just stupid CRUD, wait till you get interesting applications". First of all, no, it's not all CRUD. Front-end and back-end have all kinds of complex moving parts, one of which is CRUD. Secondly, web development is made of the same kinds of things as other development: conditional statements, loops, assignment, math, function calls, classes. They're the same thing. Thirdly, you can think of many, many systems as a sort of a CRUD, not related to web dev, e.g. the way drivers work can be thought of as simply writing to a certain memory region, i.e. doing a sort of a CRUD on this region.

I think there's different priorities for web dev, but it's because it's web dev rather than anything else, and this difference doesn't make it any lesser / bigger than other development.

 

One of the most popular myths is that "new framework appears every week". For some damn reason, IT people that have no idea what WebDev actually is, think that frontend developers are bombarded with new technologies, libraries, and frameworks every day. That new frontend skills can become outdated in a couple of months, and that frontend developers are in the constant crunch of having to learn a new library and a framework every week.

I wouldn't be so pissed off about it, if it didn't discourage so many newcomers.

 

Most people assume I can whip up an app quickly, all because I provided them a website in a short time. They also think I can quickly build them the newest Facebook-like business ("you can code, right? Here's my trillion-dollar idea...") that will automagically gain high traffic.

 

"I don't know what you are talking about I don't care" 🤣🤣🤣

 

That UI/UX aren’t as important 🤦‍♂️

 

"You need a framework for every project."
"Learning x framework before learning actual JS"
"Defaulting to JS for things that can be done with just HTML/CSS"

 

That what's important are the technologies used and not the domain of the applications we're building.

 

Two things... 1. Family / friends think I make the content myself or at least that my job is mainly to post content. 2. That any software package “that does what we want” can be hooked up to their legacy web code base easily and will save time because it already does the thing.

 

It seems hard for non-technical people to understand the timing part. Sometimes they think it's a pretty quick task while it requires weeks of hard work and vice versa.

 

Several ones come to the top of my head. The first one (and the one that upsets me the most) it's the huge ignorance amongst the processes/costs/time that it takes to make X or Y project. Once someone told me "oh you're a programmer? You know I just need a website and a mobile app", and then tried to tell me the requirements via whatsapp.

The other one it's the ignorance about the ramifications of web development: you tell people you make websites and stuff like that and then they start asking you about hosting, servers, domains, mobile apps, and so on.

Although I mainly do front end, I also have some knowledge about back end (I would say I'm no beginner, but I'm not by any means an expert), so I can at least answer those questions to some extent, but that's me. There are people that are happy doing only front end and don't know a thing about back end and vice versa, and that's ok!

And I could go on and on, but we'll enter in misconceptions about software development in general.

 

According to my experience people think that they can make millions easily in Web development and they don't have to give much efforts 😁😂🤣😅

 
 

That you need a framework or pre-compiler of any sorts.

In my opinion we over-use tools frameworks and pre-compilers far too often.

 

"Web development is just copy-pasting code from StackOverflow, nothing hard isn't it ?"

Someone actually asked me this 😅

 

Them: can't you just use Wordpress for that?

Or "Wordpress just comes with that built in"
Me: No that's a plug-in, or, I have to make that custom
Them: no it comes built in
Me: palm to face ( agggh don't touch your face!)

 

According to all my non-tech friends, I can fix our Wifi, fix out Smart TV, setup projector in the house and obviously fix it as well and whenever I am winning any online game, I have found some hack LMAO.

 

Not about web development but about web developers: We can do anything on any electric/electronic device and anything to such devices. Be it a television, a computer, a printer, a mobile phone, a mouse, a website, a server, a client app, a mobile app and many many more. We can install, fix, format, choose for purchase, configure, and perform any other verb/action.

 
 

Devs must not be fully right in the head for staring in a black screen full of some colorful gibberish all day long :)

 

People : Are you a web developer?
Me : Yes
People : Can you hack Facebook?
Me : 🤐

 

According to family, I make computers do beep boops and get paid for that.

 

It's on internet, anyone can do it, so it's free!

 

That it is solely frontend development.

Funny thing, in this case, markdown is also a programming language.

 

You are a front end engineer? Great, you can solve this complex algorithm problem too, just like a back-end engineer can center their div!

 
 
 

Two things

  1. HTML/CSS are programming languages
  2. Web-Development is the easiest form of development