DEV Community

Cover image for Salary Negotiation for People That Hate To Negotiate with Josh Puetz
Josh Puetz
Josh Puetz

Posted on • Updated on

Salary Negotiation for People That Hate To Negotiate with Josh Puetz

Josh Puetz is an engineer with over 20 years of experience making mistakes and telling stories about them. A veteran of several startups, he’s currently a principal software engineer at DEV where he creates software to support sustainable Internet communities. He lives in picturesque Door County, Wisconsin with his husband and daughter, where he enjoys coffee, CrossFit, and writing about himself in the third person.

This talk is for developers of all skill and experience levels. We'll follow a new developer as she negotiates salary and benefits as part of a job offer.

In this talk, we'll cover:

  • Reasons why we don't negotiate (and why we should)
  • Finding your market value
  • Ways to negotiate salary & benefits
  • How to make a decision

and I'll provide some next steps!

Here is a download link to the talk slides (PDF)


This talk will be presented as part of CodeLand:Distributed on July 23. After the talk is streamed as part of the conference, it will be added to this post as a recorded video.

Top comments (120)

Collapse
 
digitaldimarie profile image
💎Di Marie💎

Yes-stock options are not salary, potential bonuses are not salary, a personal budget for career education or conferences is not salary and use of the office keg and bougie coffee is not salary. Get that money!

Collapse
 
stereoplegic profile image
Mike Bybee • Edited

Keg and coffee are just ways to keep you in the office longer, as are stocked breakrooms, catered lunches, pinball/pool/foosball tables and arcade games, etc. Always greet such "perks" with skepticism, especially if you see few people leaving for lunch (I've seen way too many instances where it was creepily noted and held against people who were subsequently deemed "not a team player").

Collapse
 
digitaldimarie profile image
💎Di Marie💎

100%! Mike, thanks for noting the “not a team player” part.

Thread Thread
 
stereoplegic profile image
Mike Bybee

FWIW any company that overly emphasizes that "team player" component is probably both dangerously overreaching into your personal life AND fostering a culture that encourages homogeny of thought (which is anathema to innovation).

Collapse
 
daveford profile image
Dave Ford

What are some good strategies to avoid giving the first number? Is there a good strategy to submit an online form where it will not accept a blank value for desired salary?

Collapse
 
joshpuetz profile image
Josh Puetz

Some great replies here, I also love the technique of entering $0 or $1 in the form. Another trick I've used is to try to edit the form by editing it in Chrome so I CAN submit it without giving a number 😈

Collapse
 
rakaloo profile image
Rachael (she/her)

For a form, enter $0. It's usually a valid answer and no one will think that's what you actually make.

Collapse
 
rakaloo profile image
Rachael (she/her)

For responding to direct questions, I've had a fair amount of success turning the question back on the asker, e.g. "I'm negotiable as long as the salary is in line with my skills and experience, but do you have a range that you are working with?"

Collapse
 
hugoliconv profile image
Hugo • Edited

I have a strategy to avoid giving an expected salary but I don't know how to avoid the question of "How much do you currently make?" Does anyone has a strategy for this?

Collapse
 
fossheim profile image
Sarah

I'm in the same boat, especially since here anyone can look up anyone else's salary online. So it feels like it's also a bit pointless to give a vague number, avoid the question or lie. What I've previously done is saying something along the lines of "I make , but given my skills and the kind of work I'll be doing here I am expecting more." and also vaguely mention there's the chance I'll get a counter offer that's higher. Has worked for me so far.

Collapse
 
rakaloo profile image
Rachael (she/her)

I've had success by just being direct and saying "I don't see how my current salary is relevant to the job I am interviewing for" or "I don't feel comfortable answering that question".

Collapse
 
rakaloo profile image
Rachael (she/her)

That said, personally, I've gotten better offers when I have said the first number. However, it is more risky. You need to be sure of what comparable salaries are and shoot for the high end of what your skills and experience can get on the market. Your personal mileage may vary, but it's something to consider if you feel like you are being lowballed in general in your job search

Collapse
 
cnickels21 profile image
Chase Nickels

Great question, what are some strategies to respond to this question? And how to avoid online form application responses?

Collapse
 
edhenderson_22 profile image
Ed Henderson

"I'm sorry, my current contract with my employer prohibits me from disclosing that information."

Collapse
 
mumbledenoise profile image
mumbledenoise

When recruiters get pushy, I say, "If knowing my current salary is a requirement for this position, I'm no longer interested."

They always back down.

Collapse
 
digitaldimarie profile image
💎Di Marie💎

Thanks, good tip!

Collapse
 
kelseyhuse30 profile image
Kelsey Huse

Excited for this talk! I really want a Beignet now after seeing the 1st slide.

Collapse
 
cnickels21 profile image
Chase Nickels

My classmate would make them all the time for us! I want!

Collapse
 
kbatuigas profile image
kbatuigas

Ok you got me looking up beignet recipes. 🙏🏾

Collapse
 
joshpuetz profile image
Josh Puetz

Right? Someday I'll go back!

Collapse
 
bdunn313 profile image
Brad Dunn

If your counter offer is your minimum acceptable salary number, you could expect the company will come in lower than that as a final offer. I know you need to be ready to say 'No', but it seems like there might be other strategies that are helpful in this situation.

Any suggestions on this specific scenario?

Collapse
 
joshpuetz profile image
Josh Puetz

That's a really good point, thanks for the question!

So it's tough...in the scenario where you're countering your minimum acceptable salary, you're playing hardball: I need to get this number, or I won't come work for you. I didn't really explain this well in my talk, but you should communicate that in your counter. There's a different between telling the person you're negotiating with "I'd be more comfortable with " versus "I really can't accept any less than ".

The idea is that if a company isn't up to your minimum acceptable salary at first, you're already in a danger area.

Collapse
 
bdunn313 profile image
Brad Dunn

Thank you for the follow-up! This is kind of what I expected, but I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question and reinforcing this.

If i didn't say it already, FANTASTIC talk!

Collapse
 
rakaloo profile image
Rachael (she/her) • Edited

Always counter higher than your minimum by a healthly margin.

Collapse
 
bdunn313 profile image
Brad Dunn

I feel like this is good advice, but the speaker specifically said that if the calculation comes out smaller than your minimum acceptable salary, then you counter offer with the minimum acceptable salary.

I guess I wanted to understand that aspect of the talk

Thread Thread
 
rakaloo profile image
Rachael (she/her)

That's fair, and hopefully the speaker can weigh in with their perspective.

Personally, if their offer is that far below your minimum acceptable salary, either your expected salary numbers are not in line with the market or they are undervaluing your skills (probably the latter). If you really want that job, you can emphasize that your counter offer is a hard offer that you aren't willing to go below. You'd be surprised how many times they come up with more money. Another option, like Josh mentioned, is see if they can make up the salary deficit in other ways, like more vacation time or a higher education budget.

Thread Thread
 
bdunn313 profile image
Brad Dunn

I think that's fair insight, and I appreciate you weighing in as well! Great discussion!

Collapse
 
vaidehijoshi profile image
Vaidehi Joshi • Edited

Josh, this talk was great! If you're comfortable sharing, I'd love to know what your worst negotiation horror story is! Did you ever experience a negotiation with a company where you did something you regret or would have done something differently? I think these things are so rarely talked about, and I really like the idea of normalizing these conversations; thanks for doing this with your talk! :)

Collapse
 
joshpuetz profile image
Josh Puetz

Great question! I think my "horror" story (and it's really not all that bad) was once I was made an offer right at the end of an interview in person! I was so surprised and excited I said yes...without even confirming what the salary was 🤦🏻‍♂️

Collapse
 
vaidehijoshi profile image
Vaidehi Joshi

😂😂😂

Collapse
 
builtbybea profile image
Beatrice • Edited

should jr devs who are looking for their first job negotiate their salary?

Collapse
 
rakaloo profile image
Rachael (she/her)

100% yes

Collapse
 
joshpuetz profile image
Josh Puetz

Absolutely @bea !

Collapse
 
builtbybea profile image
Beatrice

thank you for replying. i have transferrable skills from non-technical roles and i also have a masters but no prior experience in the technology industry. would you advice leaning upon my past non-technical skills to negotiate?

Thread Thread
 
joshpuetz profile image
Josh Puetz

Absolutely! You have skills that will be useful to your employer now, and everything you'll do in the future will also benefit them. Think of your negotiating base as all the future benefits you'll bring your employer!

Collapse
 
mumbledenoise profile image
mumbledenoise

Question: Hey Josh when applying for a job is it important for to keep on a new employer when there hasn't been any response for awhile.

Should I reach out to the employer to see if I am a candidate for the job or wait for them to reach out to me?

Collapse
 
joshpuetz profile image
Josh Puetz

I'm a big fan of following up with a company/recruiter if you haven't hear from them in a while after applying: "Hey, just checking in to see where you are in your hiring process.."

Collapse
 
thecodepixi profile image
Emmy | Pixi

How would you suggest determining how much they need you, when you're really not sure?

Collapse
 
rakaloo profile image
Rachael (she/her)

If they're offering you a job, they're pretty interested. It's expensive to hire people, once they're making an offer, you have a good amount of leverage. I've gotten progressively more aggressive with negotiating over the years and, as long as you aren't a jerk, the worst that's going to happen is they'll say no to your counter offer. Try it out and just push yourself past your comfort level a little bit each time you have those conversations.

Collapse
 
thecodepixi profile image
Emmy | Pixi

That's a really good point, Rachel!

Collapse
 
anabella profile image
anabella

Hey @joshpuetz ! Amazing talk, loved the examples and the different forking alternatives of what could happen :D

I wanted know if you have any advice for negotiating salary raises within the same companie. That's often a tough one, and usually it seems not the best, but the only way to get a real raise is joining a new company.

Thanks again!

Collapse
 
joshpuetz profile image
Josh Puetz

Great question @anabella : it's really tough negotiating a raise because unlike negotiating a new job offer, I'm going to assume you don't want to walk away from the job!

I don't honestly have a lot of experience with this, so I'll point you to Josh Doody's excellent resources: fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/book...

Collapse
 
bryantit profile image
Bryant Richards

For someone who is used to making $10 an hour, these numbers blow my mind.

Collapse
 
foureyedraven profile image
Theresa

I need this! I always believed in not giving the first number, but I was scared that would be rude. Glad to hear this!

Collapse
 
ben profile image
Ben Halpern

Gotta play the game

Collapse
 
mumbledenoise profile image
mumbledenoise

I once had a company give such a low offer, it'd have taken a 50% raise to meet my minimum number. They justified it with free lunch/dinner, free train tickets to work, and stock options.

Don't fall for this!

Collapse
 
joshpuetz profile image
Josh Puetz

For those that noted the slides to my talk were missing examples: thank you! Corrected link is in the post above, and here: drive.google.com/file/d/1k_rV-eDjw...

Collapse
 
esmeesamarripa profile image
Esmeralda Samarripa

This is great information! I have learned to speak up about salary in my current industry. I have not really changed companies for about 8 years but I have changed roles and have been able to receive a raise with proper negotiation each time. Great points!

Some comments may only be visible to logged-in visitors. Sign in to view all comments.