You might think that these things don't belong in the same article, but here we are, this week in front-end development, having the same conversati...
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Huh. I disagree that Adam's reaction was either sexist or racist. I think his response was a human one. If someone with a huge platform said a tool I created "added nothing", I'd be upset too, and I'd feel entitled to sharing my sentiment with the world.
In my opinion, nobody involved did anything wrong here. A content creator created content, and a human being reacted in a human way to being harshly criticised. Both are okay things to do in my books. Not convinced this would have played out any differently had Sara not been a Lebanese woman.
Thank you for your opinion. I obviously don't agree. If someone with a cult-following of hundreds of thousands of people publicly shames someone, it automatically invites a dog-pile of toxic harassment. What he wrote was manipulative and inappropriate.
You are misquoting Sara here. Sara didn't say that, in fact, she disclaimed that she only agreed with some points and not the tone of the article, so his reaction at her instead of him (the author) is certainly not being defended in your statement here. In fact, I'm not sure if you read that Adam was actually fine with the criticisms themselves.
I've already described my framing of how systemic racism and sexism influence our behavior, so I won't restate what I've already said.
The article was written by someone with a small SM following (320 followers), whereas she has 100k followers. I'd say the size of her platform is what prompted Adam to engage with her, rather than her gender or race.
I do agree that it's important to check our biases and think critically about how and why we engage with others, and I obviously see racism and sexism as big issues to tackle in tech as well as elsewhere. I also agree with your well-reasoned statements about social mediaI.
It's just that I, hopefully respectfully, disagree with your conclusion that sexism and racism are at play in this particular exchange, and think you're reading too much into what is a perfectly normal response to a critical article being shared by a tech influencer with a huge audience. I'd be a bit upset too, if I was him.
I'm honestly glad you wrote this article because it is an engaging read and resulted in an equally engaging discussion. I'm always open to having my mind changed when presented with rational arguments, and will keep following this discussion. I'm aware my opinion is the minority one, which is why I felt the need to voice it.
I think the main disconnect here between the way you and I view interactions is that my understanding of society is that all biases and systemic oppression is always at play in any interaction. This is why intention and self-reflection is something I value highly over reactivity (which being that I am bipolar disorder type 1 and have ADHD is something I have to work extra hard at).
I strongly disagree that it was a normal response - "thank you for choosing to use your platform to ruin my day 🥰" is absolutely manipulative, passive-aggressive, and extremely entitled. The entitlement starts from the implication her purpose was to ruin his day and straight to the expectation that she should know it would ruin his day and respect him enough not to post it (despite her disclaimer that she didn't agree with all of the points nor the tone). They aren't friends, so there's no reason for her to be that familiar with him to consider him in that way. I only see this happening to women, and most often to women of color.
That's not to say it doesn't happen outside of these power dynamics, but I'm sure we could discern in every situation some sort of pathway that allows the aggressor have the sense that it is not only okay to speak to the other person this way, despite the lack of relationship, but have the expectation that they wouldn't share any challenging feedback at all.
Had he simply said what others are saying he "really meant" behind his comment, that he found the feedback itself to be misinformed and one-sided, and that he was hurt that she shared it given she has such a large platform, I wouldn't have written this post. What he wrote is precisely the problem here, not that he was hurt.
Thank you for this constructive dialogue either way. I do appreciate talking about these things, despite that my opinions are typically very strong.
I’d say, let’s forget about race, gender and just focus on what really matters. I’m Latino btw, always thought people would ignore me, hard to learn when people are telling you that there is a system against you, once I ignored that, I noticed people do listen and respect me, I became more confident and realized it was all in my head. makes me sad when things get labeled incorrectly cause it influences in mental health, people start thinking that because everything is against you, you are doomed. I’m my worst enemy… We shouldn’t asume people’s intentions. I personally agree with Sarah, I don’t think tailwind has a unique benefit (my opinion) but I also don’t think he was being racist or sexist. Debates like this are great, helps people make better decisions. I’d challenge his opinion, not him as a person or the system. People will always react in different ways and we don’t have control over it.
I appreciate you taking the time to reply to me, I now feel like I understand where you're coming from more than I did before.
Nope, I'm behind you on this one. I agree that by default we bring our whole selves, including our biases and cultural backgrounds, to each interaction. And I actually think that perhaps it's those same biases that lead to our disconnect too, which I now interpret to stem from the following paragraph.
This must be the root of my scepticism towards your analysis - I disagree with a lot of assumptions you make in this paragraph. I can see how these assumptions lead you to the conclusions you drew, but our priors are just not the same, so we end up in different places. It could be that this is because my own lived experience and cultural background lead me to see the same words as you, yet interpret them very differently. The sentence you label as "manipulative" and "entitled" only strikes me as passive-aggressive, sarcastic and intended to convey frustration. My background leads me to think that it's okay to occasionally be passive-aggressive, sarcastic and frustrated - regardless of whether this frustration is directed at someone from within your in-group, or someone entirely different to you. Being openly, publicly frustrated with someone who is not a member of your in-group doesn't by default signal "sexism" or "racism" to me. I'm all for humanising social media, and part of that is revealing when we're hurt, which is all this sentence, in my interpretation, does. I'd like to think I'd have bitten my tongue before posting a reaction like his, but I can't rule out having reacted the same way, especially on a bad day. Would that make me racist and sexist?
And I do believe there's evidence that women are more likely to get unfairly criticised - I'm just still unable to see how this is an example of that.
Be it as it may, I think both parties involved might likely be slightly bemused if they were to know the extent to which their words are being analysed here, so I'll call it a day now. Let's agree to disagree. I am grateful for this discussion and love that you've created a space where it's okay to voice one's opinion, even if it opposes yours. I look forward to reading more from you.
Hello everyone,
A reminder that our Code of Conduct strictly mandates a harassment-free, civil environment here on DEV.
We require our community members to behave in a way that contributes to creating a positive experience. Positive behavior on DEV includes using inclusive language and being respectful of differing viewpoints and experiences.
Violations of our Code of Conduct will result in comment/article moderation, a warning, temporary suspension, comment suspension, or permanent banning, at the discretion of our moderators. We take our Code of Conduct very seriously and examine all observed and reported violations individually.
Please review our Code of Conduct and keep your discourse helpful, respectful, and inclusive.
Thank you,
Gracie Gregory
Content Manager & moderator @ DEV
@graciegregory Ok having read the rules I completely agree that my comment was far too sarcastic and not constructive, thank you for stepping in to cool everything down!
The big question though is does this article itself not contravene the code of conduct?
Is this not a personal attack on Adam Wathan and if not insulting to him as it makes accusations about his character?
I do mean that genuinely, I enjoy writing here and interacting with the people on the site but the wording is not clear and as I am someone with a big mouth and strong opinions I want to know where the line is so I do not cross it!
Thanks in advance for any clarity you can give!
Hi @inhuofficial ! Thanks so much for asking for some clarification. More than happy to help. Really glad you're enjoying this community 🙂
I think the edit that's now at the end of the post sums it up pretty well. Essentially, our moderators interpret this post not as a personal attack on Adam Wathan but as a critique on a system at play in the dynamic described. The intention here doesn't seem to be to insult Adam but instead, the general framework of privilege white men benefit from inherently — and the patterns that result from this.
I hope this clarifies things a bit further. If you have any other questions about our Code of Conduct, feel free to direct them to our team email: yo@dev.to
@graciegregory thank you for taking the time to respond.
It doesn't unfortunately, it is probably an America vs UK culture thing (or just me needing an attitude adjustment!) that means I can't quite grasp where the line is, but thank you for pointing me to the email address to have a less public discussion about it.
I hope you get to enjoy the rest of your weekend and have no more "fires to put out"! and once again thank you for taking the time to respond.
Identity politics is a very toxic viewpoint and I'd hope people start realizing that we're individuals and we're not bound by group identities and as such being evaluated as one group.
This "code of conduct" is a perpetuation of discrimination against groups/people and is therefore appalling, it should be revised.
You talk about inclusion, but really what this is all about is "getting even" with "white people". It's a backwards philosophy that has created a lot of conflict in the past but now it's deemed appropriate because it's targeted at "westerners".
more censorship, that's how to deal with opinions other than your own. Don't discuss them, hide them.
I think the main thing to understand is that this is just an example of many other similar cases of entitlement that happen daily in tech (and outside of) which prompted this article to be written, taking the case study of Tailwind and Adam as a starting point.
The main point here is that he, personally, is at fault. He should do better than angrily tweeting these things, and the fact he doesn't realize he has done something wrong is stated here, not to blame him, but to raise awareness.
Where exactly did you spot sexism and racism in those tweets? I can easily see the same tweets targeted at a white male with a decent number of followers.
His reaction is poor because, as Sara herself pointed out, it's not fair to tolerate opinionated articles when they rave about a tool and police them when they don't. Also it's poor because it's low quality in general. That was not the best way to go about defending a product or complaining about unfair criticism.
However, the poorness of his response has nothing to do with sexism or racism or bullying. Even Sara's complaints in that feed didn't touch on those topics!
In the tweets you shared, Sara was not targeted on any personal level. They did not mention her nationality, gender, or faith; and she was not insulted or belittled. In fact, he actually said he admired her and you took the man's admiration and turned it around to be a sense of entitlement!!!
This is no different than what minority groups have to deal with sometimes. All of a sudden now, a white male has to worry that saying he admires someone means that he expects them to return his kindness. What?!
Him being a "man" and her being a "Lebanese woman" have absolutely nothing to do with the whole incident. His misstep was not properly taking criticism for his product.
Also, you have no evidence that he was bothered because she didn't give him the admiration he felt he deserved. He never said anything remotely close. He basically said it hurts him that people he admired are spreading negativity about the work of his life. That's NORMAL!!!! ANYONE would be hurt if people they admired spread negativity about the work of their life!!
The problem here is that he labeled criticism (fair or not) as negativity. Criticism is not negativity and sharing criticism on a popular platform should not ruin someone's day. But you missed this point entirely and went straight into making accusations.
Someone who understands the severity of sexism and racism should also understand the severity of accusing people of them!
PS: I am a Lebanese Muslim and a huge fan of Sara Soueidan. So I want to feel offended for her, but I'd rather be fair.
He didn't like her criticism (or rather, agreeing with criticism) because she had a large following... but he did the exact same thing by directing (unintentionally) his following at her.
Racism and sexism are systemic and woven into our interactions.
One aspect of this is that he was hurt by Sara sharing the criticism, and that she is someone he admires. I'd get into how people in general need to learn how to take criticism, but that's not really what we are talking about here.
The other aspect is his public manipulative reply to her, and why he felt it was acceptable and was confident to do so, despite that the criticism was not hers to begin with, and that they are not friends.
You cannot separate the power dynamics involved in giving him the perception that he could and should post what he did at her, and the lack of consideration of the cult-like dog-pile on her that would follow. Women are uniquely faced with this kind of toxic response when challenging men. Is it intentionally sexist? Not usually.
If you turn it around, you could also question why Sara felt the need to share the article, since it was incredibly poorly written also incorrect in some occasions and she's also not Adam's friend.
In my opinion, his reply was primarily emotional, hurt by someone he seems to admire (I won't get into if that's a good or bad thing), not well thought out and knee-jerk-ish.
However, I'd like to point out that his view of Sara is probably what skewed the effect it had on him. If some random person was to share that article it wouldn't have had an impact on him (probably).
Without disagreeing with your post, I think it would be interesting to figure out why we tend to put people on pedestals in the first place (it seems unhealthy) and why the dev community seems to suffer from this in particular.
To anecdotally illustrate my point: my first ever interaction in the front-end world was with someone who can be regarded as one of the leaders back in the day (still is). They encouraged people to reach out and ask questions about anything FE, so I did (as a new developer) and got insta-blocked by them (I don't know why, btw).
Long story short: our community seems, for whatever reason, quite hostile at times. That, combined with the whole "admire this select group of people" culture seems to just not work out.
Sorry, my response was a little off-topic in the end, but I think we're touching on a much, much deeper problem in our community.
Sara actually disclaimed that she simply agreed with some of the points in the post, not the tone or all of it. She shared it because she felt those points were an important consideration in whether or not to use TailwindCSS. She is a CSS and accessibility expert and front-end developer, so it is related to her expertise and something you would expect her to speak on.
I'm not disagreeing with that. The point I'm making is that he felt it was acceptable to post it, and has been unapologetic to the damage it caused, let alone that it was inappropriate in the first place. The framing here is the system that gives him the space to do so.
I agree that hero worship culture is toxic, and social media seems to have created an especially gross variation of it, including here in tech. I have had the same types of interactions that you describe here. I am blocked by some folks I would consider like-minded peers, and still have no idea why.
I agree that it seems like it was a hurt-feelings reaction.
However the point is, as a woman in Tech, I'd triple check myself for having that kind of public, hurt feelings reaction. And good odds it would backfire on me. I have to be very logical & calm in my professional life. This goes even more for Black women.
There is a discussion to be had about who has the space to critique or react or be emotional or controversial in our industry.
That Adam is safe to do so... is an interesting discussion to have.
Then you might want to edit this sentence which really sounds like a commentary on what you assume are his personal beliefs :
Unconscious bias is not personal belief.
I... don't understand? How does unconscious bias NOT be a personal belief? Our biases are a product of our individual experiences. Adam's experiences are not the same as yours or mine. Unconscious bias is not a universal construct and is a product of culture, nurture and environment. As a non-American, I don't have the same biases as an American or a Canadian, conscious or unconscious
I'm not really talking about Adam Wathan. I'm talking about this specific comment. I feel Nicolas' criticism is right
Personal beliefs are not unconscious.
This has only confused me more. This only seems like you're giving yourself a way out to be able to criticize Adam by using semantics. I don't want to be crass cause I assume you're coming from a place of constructive criticism but you seem to have assumed Adam's biases AND beliefs to make a fairly vicious comment. I also only say it's vicious because:
You use the word "absolutely" as if you know him and his biases. Maybe you do? If so you can correct me.
I'll correct my comment about "How does unconscious bias NOT be a personal belief". Unconscious bias may not be a belief but is is absolutely personal. I don't feel it is right that we assume someone's biases and then assume they're acting in bad faith. From what I have seen, Adam would react the same way regardless of who posted the article (and indeed has in the past which probably means he should stay off Twitter as whole cause it is a toxic cesspool)
Yeah I think OP is trolling ;-)
Racism and sexism are complex social issues that bleed into all of our behaviors inherently.
He did incite bullying, though I disclaimed that with the fact that I don't believe he did this intentionally. It is simply a commentary on the impact of what he's done, and what systems are in place that embolden him, and other white men, to do it in the first place.
🖕🏼🖕🏼🖕🏼🖕🏼🖕🏼🖕🏼🖕🏼😂🤣
I contrasted two of the points that the author made in the article, not all of them. Many of his points have been brought up by others, and they are valid, we simply disagree with them. As I said in my post, the title was mildly negative hyperbole, obviously click-bait. "It literally provides no value, and tons of problems" can be true in certain contexts, which is why I also criticized that nuance and proper framing of the author's particular needs and preferences were missing.
He was upset that Sara shared the criticism (as I stated) and his feeling empowered to write a public, manipulative tweet to her is something that women uniquely face, and women of color also face from white women.
You do not see white men doing this to each other.
I agree with your analysis in the broader sense, but this claim is simple false, and brings nothing to the argument.
The important part of understanding the context of this discussion is that the CSS community was very unwelcome to any new CSS tools. As a creator of PostCSS, I understand Adam’s reaction.
For me, it is not only about “constructive criticism” vs. “author’s feelings” but also about the hostile environment created by the CSS community for CSS tools authors, which blocks a good discussion and tools evolution.
Given that Sara didn't write the criticism, and Adam said that the criticism didn't bother him - your reply here is odd.
No one should be understanding of passive-aggression and manipulative guilting in front of a large, cult-like audience. It's toxic.
Yeap, the CSS community unwelcoming was not in that specific conversation of Adam and Sara. Sara (in contrast to many CSS guru) talk about CSS toolings in public.
As usual, it is a case, when we have many US white developers creating unwelcome environment, which then leads to these conflicts.
One toxic behaviour creates another.
It seems you are calling Sara's behavior here toxic. She wrote a lengthy tweet that disclaimed the article made some good points, but that she didn't agree with all of it, nor the tone.
Are you suggesting that you believe her sharing the article, along with her framing, is somehow a justifiable catalyst for Adam's passive-aggressive, manipulative public shaming of her?
I didn’t. I am calling CSS community in general toxic to CSS authors. Many popular people in CSS community are hostile to CSS tooling and use their public channels to prevent CSS toolings from having discussion platforms. It leads to more conflicts and lack of good discussion about CSS tooling limits.
I mantioned that Sara is better than rest of community.
Sorry, English is not my native language. I am guest on your territory.
Apologies, I just wanted to clarify. There's no need to apologize for the language barrier. I'm happy to take the extra time to ensure we are understanding each other.
I agree that many people in the development community, not just CSS, are toxic to each other, not just the authors of tools. It's also to folks like Sara who simply make educational content. And in many cases, the authors and communities around those tools are also aggressively toxic to outsiders.
Even Adam's own marketing is quite flagrant to the CSS community who create and educate "best practice" paradigms like BEM.
It is a terrible framing to begin with to critique and work to make better tools, I absolutely agree.
I am afraid so it seems, just stick to writing and commenting on code.
I was hoping sleeping on it would change my mind so I could write to the dev.to team, but actually it has had the opposite effect and I will instead just pick and choose what to write about here after seeing some balanced comments removed (mine was justified, sarcasm does not play well with heated topics).
A very sobering experience that has made me question whether to post about accessibility and disabled rights as if you think racism and sexism are contentious issues try working in this industry! Then trying being someone advocating for disabled rights and not having a disability.....trust me I would be banned within the week.
Stick to the code, I will stick to the meme posts and hopefully we both get to stick around for a while. That is if my itchy trigger finger doesn't release the rebuttal piece I have written, in which case, nice meeting you 🤣
Sarcasm, like most things, does not have the same effect on every conversation, nor on every medium. Sarcasm tends to work very well in communication between people who have a rapport with each other, or on platforms, only in the audience they were intended for.
Since we don't know each other, and the audience here is mixed, and it's in text, it's easy to misinterpret sarcasm for contempt and aggression.
The best advice I can give you: know your audience. There are times that sarcasm isn't going to be read that way, and it's up to you to learn when it's not communicating what you intended.
As I said, justified that my comment was removed and that sarcasm does not work on a heated discussion. You put it eloquently.
But some of the comments that were removed were innocuous and seemed to disappear simply because they did not agree. That is a zero sum game and does nothing to further discussion on important topics.
The language you used to describe his actions, despite the disclaimer, are so evident of your own bias and prejudice. It just astounds me that we think that is acceptable behaviour just because you are (I assume) a woman and that is where the outrage came from.
Personally I believe that you should be able to express those opinions, but once we start deleting comments that don’t agree then we have to do the same with articles.
Classifying and judging someone based on race and gender seems to be the very thing you rally against and I can applaud that, but if you want to stop racism and sexism you have to see that you have to stop racial Prejudice and Prejudice based on gender of any kind if you want to succeed in stamping out injustice.
You write eloquently, I feel like our goals are more aligned than misaligned but maybe look at more fruitful ways of exposing unconscious bias and inequality than making assumptions about someone you do not know. Lift others up without tearing people down. Without knowing Adam and Sara personally we cannot comment on the motivations of either of them.
I am a man, I am white, I am cis gendered and I am straight. That does not and should not tell you anything about my character, views on the world or my conduct. To imply that it does is prejudiced in and of itself.
Educate people on unconscious bias, I will stand right beside you. Fight for equality, I will lead the charge or follow you to the front lines. Project a generalisation onto any group of people and I will be stood right in front of you, between you and them.
Inclusion starts with understanding and discussion, it starts with treating people as individuals and based on their actions, we will never achieve that if you truly believe that every action performed by white men is linked to privilege...some people are just weak, some people are just a$$holes (maybe you think I am one, but that should be down to my conduct alone that you decide that.)
Privilege exists but it is such a small part of the equation and parading it out as the motivation behind every action only proves to do one thing, it encourages people to not talk to people who are not in their “groups”, it instead makes me want to avoid talking to you, for fear of reprisal. At that point you have lost any chance of persuading me of a different way of thinking.
Finally I want to make the point of why identity politics is doomed to fail...what if Adam was a trans man and had chosen not to share that with the world? Also if he was black but cis-male would you accuse him of “inciting bullying” or would it be acceptable now because you believe he is disadvantaged?
I was raised by my mother as a single parent, all of the data shows that I am disadvantaged by that far more than if I were black or female but raised by two parents. Does that mean I get some privilege points removed?
I hope my point is made without crossing any lines. Who knows maybe we will have a meaningful discussion on this between us one day but right now I am scared to say anything further for fear of reprisal and fear I may already have said too much.
Anyway I took the bait and responded when I shouldn’t, I said I would steer away from this but I just cannot help it, and that should be allowed and OK as otherwise neither of us will come to understand each other.
End rant! 😜
Unfortunately you simply misunderstand what I'm communicating here, and I'm sure that is likely due both to different experiences and levels of education and introspection on systemic bias.
The answer to the question of whether or not he was Black would have made me call out that his actions incited a large-scale harassment campaign against Sara from a cult-like following? Yes. I just wouldn't have mentioned systemic racism. It's easy to go into hypotheticals of that nature, but the bottom line is that I have never, if ever, seen this type of brazen, unapologetic behavior from prominent Black men in tech towards lighter-skinned women, regardless of their nationality.
I have, however, seen this type of behavior from white men enough times to be fed up enough to write this post.
You have mis-framed this as some sort of analysis of Adam's character. It's not. I have personal opinions about the character he's shown beyond a systemic framing as I've done here, but I don't think it's appropriate to write a public post about it at all, especially given that I frankly don't know him outside of his public persona in tech.
You're saying that you will absolutely sit down and be educated about unconscious bias, but this is the type of toxic behavior that these biases give a pathway to.
My previous response was not bait, and this is not bait. I am responding to you in good faith, and with good faith. I sincerely want this to stop happening to Sara, myself, and other marginalized folks in this space. If you want to see something quite telling - look at the folks who are framing this as character assassination and think it's unfair, and who is grateful I said this.
I've been in tech professionally for 16 years, and as a hobbyist for 21 years. I'm a competitive gamer, and have been since I was in high school. I'm an electrician. I'm a wood worker. I used to be somewhat of a hobby mechanic (1979 Datsun, specifically). I've worked in Biotechnology and mechatronics. I cannot express to you enough the commonness of Adam's behavior here specifically toward women in every single one of these male-dominated industries and communities.
I want you to consider that my framing here is entirely about the unwelcomeness that unconscious bias creates for marginalized folks in those majority-homogenous spaces, and using Adam's behavior as a prime example of both the expectations that are placed on the marginalized, and how manipulative and coercive the majority group can be, even when that isn't their conscious intention.
I really had to have a think on how to respond here as I do want to try and look past the article and just look at our interactions. This is the best I could do though as the language used in your responses doesn't read in a positive way, but I am only human so there is a chance I am still misreading it:
Firstly, I am really trying to believe that you don't have massive biases yourself.
But yet again, some of the sentences here are very presumptuous, I am not sure why you cannot see it.
Let's start with you believing I misunderstand you, not because of the language you use, but because of differing (by which I can only infer you mean "my lack of" due to your phrasing) education and how much time I spend on introspection?
A little bit of a background on me:
I work in accessibility and inclusion and have for over 5 years now, I advocate for accessibility, I spend my days working on educating people on bias, society and perception.
I have spent 18 months (and still have at least 6 months before launch) building a product all to do with inclusion, my company is called "Inclusivity Hub".
I spend several hours a day examining and being surprised by my biases and correcting them, assuming people can't do X because of a disability and then learning that I am an idiot, yes even now, after years in the industry.
The space I work in overlaps an awful lot with gender issues and race issues, as well as sexuality issues and gender identity issues, mainly because people with disabilities are more likely to be homosexual, they are more likely to be transgender, they are far more likely to face discrimination and bias than someone who is black or female but not disabled ever will (and obviously if you are black, female and disabled...you have an uphill struggle to say the least!).
Oh, and before the pandemic I was on a steering group examining how to get more women into tech.
So I am pretty confident I have a rounded education on the subject and spend a decent amount of time on introspection.
The only thing you have an advantage on is personal experience, and personal experience, whilst valuable, is just that.
Personal experience is where biases come from.
So at this point, I have to ask what your education on the subject is and whether you believe that we are similarly educated on the subject and whether I have spent enough time on introspection to justify us being able to have a conversation as equals and without the condescending tone?
Leading on from that - the personal experience of others is invaluable for me. That way I can understand where the problem is.
But just because I do not have the experience you share doesn't mean I can't listen to that experience, and that of hundreds of others and empathise and act on it. I mean that is the key point, I may not experience it, so I listen to many people's experience to see patterns. Yet again, who is more likely to have bias, one person's view or someone who has listened to many views?
So given all of that, I think the only misunderstanding we have here is in the language you choose and the way we approach inclusion.
I believe in "personal responsibility and identity", you believe in "group identity" (that is my understanding based on our brief conversation so far). You use words like "incite" and then say it is not a personal attack, I still cannot reconcile that due to the meaning of the word. "incite" is a deliberate act. Perhaps some of this is down to semantics, but I would argue that is as much your fault for your choice of words as mine for taking the word at its meaning.
I mean, yet again, look at your choice of words here:
"sit down and be educated" - who says that? I mean seriously, who has the audacity to say that, and how am I meant to take that without believing there is an undertone of "shut up and listen"?
As for biases and looking at our own biases - I will admit that given your article and our interaction I have a bias towards you that I am having to try and be mindful of, I believe you have a disdain for white men and "we are all the same".
I am trying very hard to work against that bias but so far you have given me no evidence to the contrary. I am hoping I am wrong.
You want to educate me (I really am trying to put that down to arrogance not bias, but it does smell of bias I must say), judge me because I am white, judge me because I am male, you believe in group identity....all the things I cannot reconcile with as they are abhorrent behaviours and detrimental to achieving understanding and better relations.
As for the toxic behaviour part - what toxic behaviour have I exhibited. My sarcasm was indeed unprofessional, perhaps even a little bit of an attack, but I am sure you will agree not toxic? I have already said I believed it was not the right way to approach this so I am not sure what other behaviour I could have exhibited that made you use the word "toxic". In fact I have no idea what "this type of behaviour" means in this context? perhaps you could elaborate for me?
My question is would you be happy to sit down and be educated on the dangers of group identity? (if that is how we are now talking to each other)
If so then I am more than happy to sit down and have a discussion so we can educate each other on our differing points of view.
Some of that will indeed be down to prejudice and bias. Yet again a point we could have a discussion on, but that isn't the entirety of it, there is a lot more to the story. Look deeper.
Why are white people and men outraged by this? Because you are projecting your own narrative onto an entire group. You are attacking them.
Who agrees with you? People in your group?
You are also writing on a site dedicated to an industry that is dominated by a narrative of "white man bad".
All stemming from a narrative pushed by education and Universities and the main stream media, it is an industry filled with highly educated individuals who are exposed to this narrative far more often. We are in an echo chamber of group identity politics, a narrative nobody is willing to challenge for fear of being ousted or attacked.
I am pretty sure if you wrote this same post in a more balanced industry there would be a much different reaction.
A final point with regards to trying to work out where the support or criticism comes from...with no downvote button we only have the comments, and as most of them were deleted how can we possibly see who said what and what race and gender they are? Or indeed what ratio of people disagreed with you?
As for male dominated industries and minorities enduring the jabs, remarks and other behaviour that is not welcoming - oh I really think we could be on the same ground on a lot of points here, but we are still too far apart on the fundamentals at the moment to make that work productively.
Mainly because I want to dig into more than just the surface crap you hear on social and main stream media, I want to look at genetics, culture etc. I want to look at how minor differences in temperament between men and women (across a standard distribution looking at the mean and the extremes as the extremes are where lessons can be learned) can add up to big problems and inequality. I want to look at how much of women's choice to abandon STEM subjects is driven by society, how much by genetic predisposition (women who are good at maths, on average are better than men who are equally good at maths, at other subject such as English, giving them more options), media influence, parent's opinions or the existing status quo in an industry.
I want to understand "how much of inequality is driven by X, how much by Y....right well X is where we should focus our efforts as we can't change Y easily". I want to ask the hard questions, without a narrative getting forced over it.
This is very dangerous ground to cover for friends, impossibly dangerous ground when we start from a position of opposition rather than understanding.
I will consider your framing, yet again I think that we could have common ground here, but I still cannot see how you believe that this Twitter conversation was the hill to stand your ground on, or that you cannot see how the language you used is not conducive to an inclusive and productive discussion.
Are you at least willing to concede that the fault, perhaps, is not all mine and start talking to me assuming that I may actually be able to hold my own in a conversation on these matters (or if this is just a phrasing issue, consider your phrasing in a way that I cannot misconstrue?)?
I will, in exchange, respond in good faith also and stop assuming you are trying to incite outrage (see what I did there 😋🤣🤣).
Hell, on paper we should be friends, we work in a similar space, we want inclusion and equality....surely we should be able to get to a point where we can tackle some of these issues together?
We all have them. You shouldn't try to believe that. I try to consider those biases before I make decisions, as should everyone.
I said different to mean different. It doesn't mean you have done so less. I'm not assuming what you have done, but clearly, we have done so differently, and in different framings, because we are different.
This is an example of that! Examining getting women into tech versus examining why women are leaving tech. And, as a woman, I have a perspective and framing of understanding why I have felt oppressed and unwelcome in tech (far before becoming vocal on any issue, which started with accessibility), and that's a framing you will never have. That doesn't mean I think I'm better than you, simply that our introspections will always be different, even on things we have in common, like both being white.
As far as misunderstanding me, I'm pointing to this:
You misunderstand that I am speaking to his motivation, while I'm simply saying that the comment was manipulative and passive aggressive. His motivation to do that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the framework of society, and even specifically the development community, that gives him the space to be manipulative and passive aggressive publicly and unapologetically.
I'm sorry if that wasn't clear in my last response, but I am honestly weary from the volume of harassment I've received because of this post. (not this discourse, but just in general).
I chose the word incite because it does not speak to motivations. To incite is to spur to action, incite does not speak to initiation nor intention. It only means that Adam caused the harassment pile-on, not that it was his intention was to do so.
There is no undertone there. I misremembered your words (upon looking back you wrote stand, not sit), and that is because I am someone who "sits down and listens" because I believe that accepting I have something to learn from someone else in a situation where someone else is choosing to be vulnerable where I have privilege takes humility. I am also a very visual, relational person, so sometimes my wording comes directly to what I'm seeing. I grew up sitting down and listening to a teacher who is standing, so my writing about learning from one another is reflective of that. A doubled-edged sword, as I believe it's one of the things that makes me perceived as "a great writer", but also, to be misunderstood.
And again, I wasn't suggesting you "sit down and listen", I was trying to express that I was talking about the behavior that makes marginalized folks feel unwelcome and leave spaces where they are marginalized, not making broad generalizations, as you contrasted when you "listen and stand beside".
I was talking about Adam's tweet, not your discourse with me.
It's not "white people and men". It's white men. A single white woman said she disagreed, and upon reflection that the behavior from Adam was unwarranted, she agreed in part. She disagreed that Adam's comments were racist and sexist, and I agree, they weren't, as that's not what I'm saying.
Lots of white men were not outraged and thanked me for shedding some light into the ways they've seen themselves behave or allow other white men to behave... which is really the goal.
I am not attacking white men. White men feel attacked because of what I've written. There's a difference, and I believe you know that!
I would argue that "white man bad" narrative is a vocal minority, and the perception that it is the dominate narrative is warped by the natural human inclination to focus on and then notice the worst feedback.
Obviously we certainly can't speak to the ratio of who agrees and who disagrees, I should have said who feels safe to comment in disagreement, and more specifically who feels safe to write toxic, hateful, personal insults at me. I can tell you that I am an honest person, and every single one of the comments that was deleted for being the former, and every single person I had to hide reply and block on Twitter was a man, and only two of them weren't white.
And let's accept for a moment that maybe the ratio is off because those are the only folks who feel emboldened enough to reply with a personal attacks on me or disagree in a way that can be viewed by our peers as toxic, doesn't that speak directly to what I'm talking about in my post?
I'd actually go so far as to say if we were in a more balanced industry, no one would feel they could safely write a toxic, manipulative comment that hundreds of thousands of people would see and react to, so I wouldn't have written this post at all.
I have witnessed this and experienced it myself. I, as a woman, have been accused of being aggressive for trying to push a product change forward, and when a man who had the same vigor and passion repeated it later he was applauded for his care and persistence for the customer. And I could continue to recount, sincerely, dozens of these instances... and that's ONLY in the workplace. If I expand to my experience on Twitter in a similar position as Sara... we're talking hundreds.
Mentioning the words racism and sexism, calling that Adam caused something... it's reality, though I understand how some folks, like yourself, believe that language is not going to create a productive discussion. But I didn't say anything about Adam's beliefs, or all of white men's beliefs, I'm talking about a pattern of behavior and using Adam's comment as an example.
Sara deleted her post because of the harassment that Adam's comment brought to her. Has Adam deleted his comment? No. Has he apologized? No. Do I expect him to do either of those things? No. My hope is that there is large-scale change, and that everyone else held to the same standards, in spite of how the system gives some folks space to be toxic and others to be intentional and constructive.
I hope that you can be willing to concede that not only do I assume you can hold a conversation on these matters, that I'm willing to have one with you because I am doing so! As you can see above, I admit fault where it is mine.
I assume you know this isn't constructive, but I want to point out that you had to put in the action word of trying because incite is to cause and to try is to make intentional effort to accomplish. In actuality, I have incited outrage, despite that not being my intention to do so.
I want more than just equality. I want equity. I don't view you poorly, though. You mention wanting to talk about the science behind some of these inequities, and something you can skim (or read, but it's long so I've no expectation of that 😂 ) that covers my thoughts on James Damore's Manifesto, I'd be happy to take this conversation offline and expand it. I feel like at this point I should also disclaim that like Damore, I am autistic.
Is that not what we are doing here? I disengage when it feels like a discussion is about winning, and so my still participating is absolutely about learning.
The problem I see is that the assumptions you make aren't based on any insight. There is simply no reason to believe that his reaction has anything to do with her or his identity. I find this article more toxic for an inclusive environment than the reciprocity that Adam expected. As such, I don't only disagree with your assessment, but would like to suggest to apply some caution when making accusations like that.
I think it is very human to defend one's projects and being hurt if people important to you are criticizing them. We might find that entitled, if you want so. But by no means does that point to any biases by itself. I urge all of us to stick together to survive this cancel culture behavior. Our industry has one of the best prerequisites to look into a future of equality and inclusion. Assuming one's intend is dangerous and counterproductive to this goal and should be put on the same level of scrutiny as racism and sexism itself.
I have made no accusations, nor spoken to anyone's intent (other than to say that I believe that it was NOT his intent).
Adam didn't defend the project, he wrote a manipulative, passive-aggressive comment that hundreds of thousands of his supporters could see. If you can't argue from a factual starting point, we've nothing to discuss.
I'm also not canceling Adam or TailwindCSS. I use it, and continue to use it. This is about a system that gives folks like you the confidence to literally dismiss reality to defend something someone did wrong by minimizing it in a historical rewrite.
Thank you for replying. Again, I'll give you that his reaction can be considered as hurt and childish. Everything else you write in your reply seems to be exactly what you -given, in my opinion - accuse Adam of. What are you assuming about me when you say
? And what historical rewrite are you referring to? Can't you see that you are reacting in the same petty way to criticism?
But just to be clear: I don't defend the way Adam reacted, I just don't see the connection to identity, nor to "the system".
He did not defend the project. It's misleading to frame your discussion with me off of a point that is unrelated to what occurred.
Folks like you... white American men? You realize I don't need to assume that? You stream on Twitch and readily share that information about yourself. Do you think it's a coincidence that I could have assumed that and have been correct, based on your statement?
I'm not, so no, I wouldn't be able to see that. I've had discourse with several people on this matter who are hyper-critical of what I'm saying.
Then what is the purpose of discussing that it is natural to defend your projects when criticized, in relation to what I've written?
I understand that. I hope you can understand that I do, and that's why I've written what I have.
It seems to me that we have different interpretations of what "it is human" means.
What I meant by that is that being defensive (and likely to go overboard with it) is a human trait. This does not mean that it is justifiable or ethically sound, it just means it's natural in the sense that we know this psychological phenomenon well. And yes, that makes it "natural" in the actual sense of the word. This is true for various forms of aggression and is not automatically linked to a societal structure but rather to our "monkey brains" not having adapted yet to a modern, complex and dense society. However, of course it can be depending on conscious or subconscious intent. My problem was that you didn't point to any argument supporting this connection. Instead, you declare it as inherently connected due to a patriachical society.
I am not denying that structural issues exist in society. As a matter of fact I want to address those just like you do. However, your article seems to be picking up on something that I cannot identify as being the cause of such issues. To be frank, it reminds me of the saying "When all you have is a hammer, all problems need to be nails".
About this paragraph: I am not sure whether I should be honored that you looked me up, or disappointed that you didn't bother to start a video for at least one minute (which probably would have given away that I am not American). However, that isn't the point.
Way more important is: No, I do not see how my opinion could only have been voiced by a white male like myself. What you are implying here is sexist and condescending and the fact that you are the one who is entitled to say things like
is the clearest indication there can be that you aren't a convincing force against toxicity.
Yes, of course I realize that you wrote that as that is the way you see it. I didn't assume you wrote this as a hit piece. In the same way, me having a different assessment is the reason why I engaged in the first place.
I agree with that, and there can be dozens of reasons why someone may be more reactive than someone else (I'm bipolar, autistic, and I have ADHD, so I'm familiar with being this way). I'm not saying he is being defensive because he's racist or sexist, in fact I'm not calling him those things at all.
I didn't point to any connection to intent (or support therein) because I don't care about his intent. I care about the impact and the structures that exist that enable this behavior to begin with.
While I understand how this is being gathered, it's more like, "Everyone needs to learn when to use a hammer, and when to use a nail gun, but not everyone is held accountable in the same way when they use the wrong tool and create damage as a result of not using the correct tool." And I say this hesitantly, as I feel like it's a bit dehumanizing to compare what happens to people in society to carpentry.
Neither. I have watched you Twitch in the past, and I looked you up because I didn't want to assume anything about you given your branding here. I assumed you were American because you and your company are based in New York. I wouldn't assume you weren't a citizen based on your accent.
I didn't say that. If I thought that, I wouldn't have looked you up. I'm pointing to a pattern here of this type of response, not saying that it is an impossibility that anyone else could or would break that pattern.
There is no such thing as reverse sexism. While I may feel entitled in some aspects, this certainly isn't one of them.
Ok.
And I recognized that (which is why I responded), but I felt the basis of the way you engaged to be, as I said, dismissive and apologist on behalf of Adam because of how you've worded it. I'm willing to concede that this wasn't your intention, and thus, makes what I sound kind of asshole-ish.
Awesome analysis! Thank you for sharing and bringing attention to this.
This was a good read, and I appreciate your perspective on the matter, though I can't say I agree with all the points. I think there's a few unverifiable assumptions being made here though.
Are you sure that's why? It could be the he realized the article was a cleverly disguised yet poorly written and largely unsubstantiated hate piece, by someone who's pretty irrelevant in the industry. I'm just not convinced Sara's gender and nationality is a part of it.
On the flip side he mentioned he already has a large amount of admiration and respect for Sara, and perhaps he was disappointed to see her sharing such a piece, because he felt that somehow "legitimized" the article. Nobody enjoys seeing someone they admire criticize their work, but especially if the critique is objectively wrong and easily refutable. Prominent figures in the industry have an inherent responsibility to do their due diligence before sharing articles like the one she did.
I realize this really boils down to if you thought the original article was something more than a thinly veiled hate piece, because it completely changes the context of what Sara shared, so take my own criticism with a grain of salt. At the end of the day, I would have preferred to see Adam take it to DMs at least, as he should know posting a reply like that (even if it wasn't a QT) would likely put a target on Sara's back, and I'm sure she deals with way too much of that garbage already. If anything, I think that is where Adam took his privilege for granted.
Anyway, I still enjoyed reading your perspective, it gave me lots to think about, even if I didn't agree with it all. I appreciate you!
I wish I had the context of Sara's tweet here, but she didn't simply post the link. The link itself was at the end of a 280-character tweet. You are assuming she "did not do her due diligence" when it's simply untrue. She made fair points and disclaimers.
Learning to sift through criticism is difficult, yes, but it's an important part of working with others, which is a big part of OSS! Whether or not he would have felt slighted by ANY public figure sharing a criticism of his work is irrelevant, to post a reply like that so brazenly comes from the system we are in. And that's what is key to understand. I'm not saying he consciously thought, she's a woman and she's not even American or white! How dare she! It's deeper than that. It's the entitlement.
It's like saying, well, women are in the minority at our company, but it's not because I thought, I don't want to hire women or women aren't capable, it's a complex web that gets woven and dictates our behaviors.
If he realized the article was written as a hate piece by someone irrelevant, why was he bothered by the act of sharing? Or felt the need to react at all?
Nothing changes regardless of the content itself. Hundreds of people write hate pieces, just about nobody gets much attention yet...
Let me prephase this by saying this is my take on the situation: I think that this whole interaction has been framed into a very specific set of issues in the world right now and observers seeing through that frame are blinded to a certain degree, as to what actually is the problem.
Adam reacted the way he did because Sara by the very least partially agreed with an article (by choosing to share the link at all) that hadn't explored the configuration options available to any developer using Tailwind. Regardless, whether or not she agreed or disagreed is not the point. It is right to say that he shouldn't have worded his emotional turmoil the way he did, but then again if it is someone you held in high regard it can get difficult.
I would dare to say that it has nothing to do with Adam being white or a man or Sara being an immigrant or a woman. It's just a person expressing how she agrees with someone else, and someone that built what the other 2 are criticizing feeling emotional about it. While not the perfect way of reacting, it can make sense because literally no one fully knows or understands the work and effort that was put into making the product.
A fine example of this (while not an exact representation but bear with me) is how Hackernews is literally shitting on mightyapp.com/, how people that try to agree/disagree with whether or not Mighty is an initiative worth taking criticize not only the ideas/points made but the people themselves and how the founder at some point had blocked (on Twitter) a few of those that argued against the product.
Did it matter to the founder that among the people criticizing there were women, immigrants, white people, black people, etc.? I highly doubt it. Is it in his right to do so? Yeah, because he's probably dealing with a crap ton of stress. Should it matter anyway? The reaction regardless is obviously emotional.
People criticize other people, and it is natural. People feel hurt and that is also natural. People behave in ways that you wouldn't expect them to when feeling hurt which is also natural. This is true for anyone involved devoid of race, sex, or any other label that's slapped on us.
I would also dare to say that this issue could've been solved easily if only the involved parties talked about it for a bit instead of us, completely irrelevant people discussing the problem without the full context of how either side felt, what they've been through, and how they see each other as.
There are problems where people coming together is important, but this clearly isn't it. Then again, that's what I think.
Many of us know quite well the effort that was put into making a framework because we, too, have worked on compilers. Your comparison is not a great one, because we aren't talking about Adam blocking Sara, we're talking about the comment he made, and that he didn't at all think he should "consider how he would be perceived and his large platform", and this is entirely because of systemic sexism and racism. When you're not held accountable for this kind of behavior, while marginalized folks have to consider these things to simply safely exist in these spaces - that's enabling and upholding that same system.
We wouldn't be having this conversation had Adam taken the time to consider how irrational and manipulative what he was typing was, his enormous cult-like following and how they might treat Sara as a result, not because we wouldn't know about it and have the opportunity to talk about how racism and sexism enable and protect this type of behavior, but because it would have meant that Adam thought critically at all, instead of just reacting off of his unfounded expectations of Sara.
I really miss times, when people didn’t see racism and sexism everywhere. And when a white man disagreed with a woman or non-white man, it wasn’t treated like an attack at race or gender level. It could make no sense or be just stupid, but nobody accused it’s racist or sexist. It’s silly.
Publicly, personally shaming someone and inciting a dogpile of large-scale harassment is a discourse on the merits of software and best practices?
Can you be more clear about what you are wanting clarity around, then? Because the systemic racism and sexism is pointing directly to how this behavior is allowed to exist.
I disagree.
My thesis is that systemic racism and sexism (and other power dynamics, like the ones you've listed above) create an unwelcoming, marginalizing space that allows for members of the majority to behave in a way that is hypocritical when contrasted with what they expect of minoritized group members.
They are not. If someone who is not disabled takes the last parking space designated for disabled folks, their intention may be to quickly run in and out of a store. If a disabled person is displaced and has to park farther away, and is injured as a result, does it really matter that the abled person did not intend to displace a disabled person, let alone render that person injured? It does not matter if the abled person is actively ableist - their action was ableist, even if unintentionally.
This isn't even a great parallel, and that is because I'm not saying that Adam's actions were racist or sexist, but rather his lack of fear in posting the comment he did, the subsequent pile-on on Sara, and his ability to continue to thrive without apology, or even acknowledgement, is rooted in the society we live in - one that is founded on patriarchal white supremacy.
As I've said elsewhere, his intentions don't matter to me. What matters to me is that we exist in a space where certain people are not held accountable in the same way others are, and certain people are criticized more harshly than others, and there are always patterns that reflect that this is directly correlated to humankind's natural tendency to "other" folks who are different than themselves. We have the ability to think critically before we act. For some, this is a requirement for their psychological, and often physical, safety. For some, they can run a company and write toxic commentary and continue being successful, ignoring any and all scrutiny of their behavior.
While I agree that my own post may leave a lot of my own personal experience to be connected to the readers' similar personal experience, to say that I "require" the readers to make connections for me is uncharitable. I've engaged deeply in these comments, both defending my points and expanding on them.
While this might be a stretch from your perspective, this is something I've witnessed, and studied, and I certainly walked through some of my thoughts based entirely around social media and human programming due to social media. There is something deeper, of course, that you want to sweep under a "knee-jerk reaction", and that is what I've outlined in my post. Yes, it was a knee-jerk reaction, I'm not saying it wasn't. I'm outright saying that the content of that knee-jerk reaction, and the fact that it was in response not to the criticism itself, but rather Sara posting it, points to fundamentally to a system that allows him to not only react the way he did, but rob Sara of her intent, autonomy, and humanity. I'm asserting that she did not meet his expectation of mutual respect, and thus, his reaction was "equal and opposite" to the emotions that elicit.
You're welcome to disagree with that assertion, but from my perspective, given that he has rules for Sara that he does not have for himself, and a larger platform than she does, with a dogmatic following... it's hard to fill in any other psychological reasoning for his comment.
I feel like my comment from yesterday disappeared? Reposting in the hope it will serve as a reminder that people can and do have discussions in a civil and respectful way (just maybe not on Twitter).
I appreciate you taking the time to reply to me, I now feel like I understand where you're coming from more than I did before.
Nope, I'm behind you on this one. I agree that by default we bring our whole selves, including our biases and cultural backgrounds, to each interaction. And I actually think that perhaps it's those same biases that lead to our disconnect too, which I now interpret to stem from the following paragraph.
This must be the root of my scepticism towards your analysis - I disagree with a lot of assumptions you make in this paragraph. I can see how these assumptions lead you to the conclusions you drew, but our priors are just not the same, so we end up in different places. It could be that this is because my own lived experience and cultural background lead me to see the same words as you, yet interpret them very differently. The sentence you label as "manipulative" and "entitled" only strikes me as passive-aggressive, sarcastic and intended to convey frustration. My background leads me to think that it's okay to occasionally be passive-aggressive, sarcastic and frustrated - regardless of whether this frustration is directed at someone from within your in-group, or someone entirely different to you. Being openly, publicly frustrated with someone who is not a member of your in-group doesn't by default signal "sexism" or "racism" to me. I'm all for humanising social media, and part of that is revealing when we're hurt, which is all this sentence, in my interpretation, does. I'd like to think I'd have bitten my tongue before posting a reaction like his, but I can't rule out having reacted the same way, especially on a bad day. Would that make me racist and sexist?
And I do believe there's evidence that women are more likely to get unfairly criticised - I'm just still unable to see how this is an example of that.
Be it as it may, I think both parties involved might likely be slightly bemused if they were to know the extent to which their words are being analysed here, so I'll call it a day now. Let's agree to disagree. I am grateful for this discussion and love that you've created a space where it's okay to voice one's opinion, even if it opposes yours. I look forward to reading more from you.
Just to clarify, your previous reply wasn't removed (you can find it in your own posts), it just got lost because it was mistakingly a reply to a reply that I hid.
It is here: dev.to/sanspanic/comment/1eae4
And here's a link to the issue I created regarding this: github.com/forem/forem/issues/1373...
I agree with your point that he felt the hurt by the fact someone who he admires shared a criticism of something he deemed to be toxic.
What I don’t understand is how you make the assumption that he respected and admired the original author of the article. Did he make that obvious somewhere (honest question)?
I had thought the article didn’t bother him because he actually did not respect it nor the author, so it was easy for him to disregard it. But since someone he admired shared the article, it was then that it became a more visceral response.
I didn't say he respected and admired the author of the article.
That being said, there is a certain level of respect (not the admiration kind, but the leaving well enough alone and doing no harm kind) in simply not engaging with the author, which he was able to easily do given that the critique itself did not bother him.
You wrote that “Sara has had to earn his respect and admiration, as a non-American woman of color, instead of getting it from default in-group bias”, so I understood that as being in contrast to the original author of the article.
It seems to me that personally considering what someone you admire/respect says is a common thing. If my wife tells me she doesn’t like what I’m wearing, that will prompt to reflect much more than if a stranger would to do the same.
Though I agree it was irresponsible to guilt trip on twitter.
You're not disagreeing with me.
I said his issue was that she shared the critique at all - not the critique itself.
Great article, I think it's awesome that you took the time to explain things concisely and bring people's attention to this in general.
From my memory, this isn't the first time we've seen actions like this from Adam. It's extremely irresponsible to draw negativity to anyone for giving fair criticism ,especially when you have a large, and often toxic following behind you; very disappointed to see lessons were not learned from past mistakes.
(edit: whether said criticism has been addressed before is irrelevant to my point- don't target your following at people for criticizing your work. )
In my experience, a vocal minority of Tailwind CSS fans tend to "yuck people's yums", and don't accept the fact that not everyone has to like, or use Tailwind over other styling options.
There's a lot of shaming that goes on whenever someone comes out and says they don't like Tailwind, or that they prefer to use more traditional CSS/SCSS/Frameworks. If you tweet about CSS right now chances are there would be at least 1 or 2 tailwind "reply guys" in the comments defending Tailwind to a fault, telling you that you're wrong for using something besides tailwind, etc, etc. Not every tool works for everyone, and that should be okay.
Obviously, not everyone that uses Tailwind CSS is like this (I use Tailwind CSS in a number of production sites, and it works great for the projects where I'm using it! ) but this overall toxicity is a trend that's become so apparent that it's hard to ignore.
(edit: adding "a vocal minority" to the first paragraph)
Thanks for writing this; given everything you've seen from this fiasco, I can imagine you were a little nervous to hit the publish button.
There's a lot of insight in your assessment of his response being rooted in biases, consciously or not. I hadn't even thought of that before I read your article--I interpreted the whole thing as someone being overly sensitive to criticism.
I think we have way too much of a hero-worship culture in this industry. People start thinking a good engineer is irreproachable because of their coding skills, but no one is free from criticism and no one is done growing/improving.
Thanks again for writing.
Whether or not I agree with your article, this write-up will drastically affect DEV.to as as an entire platform moving forward. I've never seen this heated and divided of a discussion on this site before. I trust the mods to handle it well but everyone needs to tread carefully here.
I just don't agree with what was written in this article, you are accusing Adam with what don't know for sure if he did mean that also you had this extreme political twist to the matter "Sexism and Racism" while from adam tweets we see that he is just not happy that someone with a large influence "spreading negativity" I might not agree with him 100% about that point but that's his opinion he should be free to share it but I just don't like the political twist you added to the matter in your article also some of what you have said conflicts with code of conduct of this site
Nope!
Feel free to read other discussions here about this and the code of conduct. Cheers.
Because it's false and the topics are covered elsewhere. Thanks!
I wasn't accusing him of anything, so the premise of your opinion is faulty in the way you've framed it
Very enlightening article! While I don't condone how Adam handled his feelings, I was still surprised to read that you don't think that Brian's article was toxic, as it says things like "[Tailwind] is as welcome and useful as passed gas". While there is some good stuff in there, it sounds mostly pissed off, the author obviously didn't spend enough time with Tailwind, many of his arguments are addressed on Tailwind's landing page.
I find the article to be mild, in part because this is roughly the same manner that its creator markets TailwindCSS against CSS best practice paradigms like BEM, including on the landing page.
I didn’t say or imply the article was good - simply that it was merely fine and made some good points.
It's relevant because of power dynamics. I feel I explained that pretty well.
If we have an interaction, that interaction is influenced by the fact that I am an American woman and you are a man of (I think) another nationality. It dictates how we speak to each other, and how we read each other. What we expect of each other, how easily we are able to build rapport, what fears (if any) we have.
It is our job to recognize that and think critically about what how we engage with each other.
For anyone wanting a constructive and positive read related to development but not strictly coding, I'd like to recommend: dev.to/technoglot/you-re-on-fire-i...
I wasn't calling him either of those things, nor did I suggest what you're saying here.
You don't need to read articles about anything you don't want to. I can't really help that you chose to here.
Thanks, you too.
The only thing that explains this level of irony is the author's stated belief that she views _"... all biases and systemic oppression are[is] always at play in any interaction.".
Unfortunately, within the confines of such constraints, I'm limited to little more than praise or silence.
You do realize that I don't have the authority to mark a post as low quality? The posts that weren't abusive had that label removed and I responded to them.
I'm sorry, that wasn't clear, and to some degree projecting towards the comment author, which wasn't intentional.
I think the article itself is ironic, perhaps even hypocritical, and now seeing a degree of irony in this exchange itself.
here we go again, the group think in full effect. When are we learning people have individual responsibilities and this does not hinge on group identities.
People are responsible for their own actions and not because they're part of some group identity.
You want to move into a positive world together, this should be the core aim this site and these discussions should move to.
What i find appalling is that this discrimination based on groups is perpetuated by this site and not shut down.
We don't need racism or discrimination to condemn 1 person's action. Let's keep it civil.
I haven't had a project where I considered TailwindCSS or Angular. Was it because they are bad? Not really, I've never tried it long enough to decide. There was a time I disliked Typescript, now it's the first dependency to install. There's a way I like my code organised and there are setups that would make me never ever contribute to a repository using it.
Having said that, it's important to differentiate between the code and the coder persona. We are all different, have different opinions on tech stack and everything else. Replace one framework with another and share a "before/after" article is a good way to promote favourite tech. Write opinionated "One Vs Another" is probably not.
I don't know much about tech bulling as my tech community is purposely limited to dev.to and work, but I can imagine that the more people are in the same room, the bigger the chances that some of them are hazardous.
I hope I'll be saying something obvious: skin colour, shape of genitals or sexual preferences should not have any effect at all on coding style, tech choices or anything else.
As well as anybody can get offended by lack of recognition for their work (with or without grounds), or give in to their temper and spread it all over the internet.
This eternal fight of "us" versus "them" (whoever the groups are) have no winners, but a lot of collateral damage. Can we just agree that we are all wrong and have a lot to work on?
Bullying happens here, too, but the moderators are pretty great and hopping on and dealing with it, which discourages and often stops the pile on.
As for the rest, no, a lot of people can't get loudly, abrasively offended by the reactions to their work. Marginalized folks do not fall upward, they get erased. But yes, we all have a lot to work on. And that's what we're talking about here.
"This isn't a commentary on Adam's intentions. This isn't a commentary on Adam's personal beliefs. This is a commentary on the systems we live in which empower a white man in our industry to publicly shame and guilt a Middle-Eastern woman and to expect certain behavior of that woman that white man does not expect of himself, nor of other white men."
I'm truly curious. Based on this edit, and I'm thankful you added this note.
Who is to blame for the actions? Adam? Or our society? If this isn't a commentary on Adams intentions and personal beliefs, then how does one be held accountable for their own actions? How do we call people to "do better" is morality only tied to culture acceptance?
These are big questions, I'll admit, I'm just trying to understand your perspective. Feel free to shoot me a message with your response if you don't want to create a thread.
I think we are accountable for our actions, and all of us are responsible for the framework that creates inequitable systems that allow this kind of behavior (especially only from certain people in certain power dynamics).
I think talking about it can solve both: if I'm hurt by critique from someone, I recall those conversations and consider my expectations of the other person and whether or not I'm being uncharitable due to some inherit bias I have, and what kind of impact engaging with this person would have in my current state of mind. Often time this introspection, regardless of power dynamics, give me the space to cool off and recognize I was being irrational before I acted on it, ensuring no one is harmed because of how I felt in some fleeting moment.
For me personally, I realized I always did this when I was personally hurt by men, because I was focusing on how my reaction could impact myself, and now after learning about systemic oppression and biases, I force myself to be just as thoughtful in situations where I am not afraid of what could happen to me as a result.
I do think there's a two-fold outcome here, of course, and that is not only hoping everyone becomes more introspective, but that we start holding everyone accountable equally.
Thank you for the very well thought out response. I appreciate you taking the time and explaining and addressing the questions I raised. As a conservative, I strive to not allow traditional thinking to not allow progressive change from coming in and bringing justice, where justice is needed. I believe the polarizing and downright political heated discussions that go on constantly make it exhausting to hear a coherent argument.
I don't agree with everything taught is systematic oppression, but I do believe oppression occurs quite often. And I admire your desire to stop it, even if we may or may not agree with how it came to be, why it's still happening, and how we are ultimately stop it for good.
Hey @thebarefootdev I think you're conflating Cher (a member of the DEV community who, as she states, has a personal account on dev.to much as you do) with DEV (the platform of which you're both members).
As a member of the DEV admin team, I will happily continue this conversation with you by DM (my inbox is always Open) or email at yo@dev.to - happy to elucidate if there's any lingering confusion!
I really appreciate your opinion on this (big fan of your work and your DIY feed).
Your points are valid and worth hearing. Especially around the network effects of people with large followings.
I'm not sure my view is quite toxic positivity, but I still don't think the initial article added anything valuable to the discourse around Tailwind. I think we agree on this, but I also agree that the response from Adam's followers was shitty and he has a responsibility NOT to use that audience in the same way he accused Sara of using her's.
Do you think there is any onus on DEV around this? I'd like to know how we can improve, being the platform that started a pretty hurtful whirlwind of opinions. I am not a big decision-maker on the team, but I want to be able to contribute to the discussions we have around content on our site.
I believe that some of the argument that this is toxic positivity requires a previous framing of how TailwindCSS has been marketed using the same type of language the article uses to describe BEM and other "CSS best practice" paradigms. It's tough for me to separate the article's tone from the tone it's meant to be contrasting, but I do agree that there are many things about the article that make it... not a compelling or good piece of writing.
As for DEV, I think it's difficult. I think there's something to be said about being able to turn off comments when discussion is impossible to keep healthy, but I'm not sure.
But at the end of the day, I still feel like I can contribute, and folks who want to leave because they "don't want to be censored" shouldn't influence whether or not there's moderation. Self-moderated platforms are the healthiest platforms, and it's not because they are echo-chambers.
Thank you for the work you all do on this platform. I appreciate it a ton.
Toxic positivity is right. Everyone needs to stop jumping all over eachother at the slightest whiff of criticism. Especially when that criticism is true. Without criticism we'd all be stuck with our heads in the sand. This especially applies to my demographic. Maybe it's too much too ask that the Internet learn how to have a debate/healthy argument, but it would be nice if we all did.
Hello Cher,
Thank you for your article and the links.
Regarding TailwindCSS, I can't comment as I don't know, nor use it, and I don't care about it at the moment.
Regarding the other issues, I would rate them as very sensitive.
Even so, I think it's a good reason to talk about it.
In General (Sexism & Racism):
Racism in general seems to be something we learn in our childhood through our environment, be it from strangers, friends or families.
This means that we have to unlearn it by questioning our bad feelings (anger, shame, defiance, etc.) towards situations or people (self-reflection is critical). That said, I believe racism affects all genders and I don't tolerate it (nobody should)!
I never really learned sexism towards women because my sister and mother are the dearest people in my life. I always encourage them to stand up against people who want to put them in this category because I want them not to live in fear or under unfair restraints, no woman should have to!
To "Adam Wathan's tweet at Sara Soueidan's tweet":
Unfortunately, the entire situation does not seem to have been handled professionally and objectively.
"Adam himself stated that he was unbothered by the article itself, but rather held Sara accountable for daring to not only agree with the criticism, but to share that with her audience."
In that case, he should have turned to Sara Soueidan with pointing out the issues.
"...use their influence to spread negativity..." -Adam Wathan's tweet
is just not good enough as an argument in my opinion. It's more of an accusation.
There are parts of racism and sexism that are learned (expressed as bigotry and prejudice) and the rest of it is subtly woven into our lives. It's where we benefit and others are oppressed and we miss how we are taking advantage of systemic biases and inequities.
I'm not going to deny that there is systemic prejudice, but the question is how to get rid of that. What options are available?
Call out behaviors that capitalize privilege and/or oppress or exploit marginalized folks. The onus should be on all of the people engaging in and enabling those behaviors to recognize what they are doing and work towards 1) making it unacceptable behavior by holding others accountable for it equitably and 2) thinking before they act to consider if their behavior actually is just and acceptable.
I'd say this is less of a "dev" problem than a Twitter problem; it's just compounded in dev because open source maintainers (like Adam Wathan, creator of Tailwind CSS) don't make money directly from their tools.
So Adam (entitled or not) has to have cognitive dissonance everyday about "working for free" when he could be working for money.
While Cher has a good point that Adam's "fragile white male ego" (to paraphrase) meant he was "angrily tweeting" in a way that ended up negatively impacting a woman of color, she also discounts that without the motivation of people loving his project than he probably wouldn't do it.
Is that entitlement? Absolutely, because as a white-male-with-experience he can pull down 10-20% more (or 100% more) in salary than someone less privileged.
But it's also not particularly fair to Adam to suggest that his feelings are invalid, since he's made the best CSS framework in history.
The whole "mob response" & oppression of minorities is simply the natural consequence of tribalism on Twitter, see the January 6 riot on the US Capitol.
The moral is if Adam had stayed off Twitter and blankly ignored anyone suggesting he read the new "criticisms of Tailwind" article that Cher's a big fan of, then he never would have (accidentally, in my opinion) oppressed anyone.
Great take on a issue that happens way too often in tech and tech social media.
Thanks for raising awareness in a very gentle way.
I sincerely hope this will open the eyes of more people in a privileged position.
I hope they see this article as a reminder that we all have biases and that we should try to be aware of them when engaging on social media!
Thanks again 🙂
I think the most agreeable solution for everyone is to delete Twitter and spend a lot less time there. Or we can have GamerGate 2.0. Just delete your Twitter and don't go on there unless it's literally your job. See something you don't like? Leave it. Every time I see an article that mentions Twitter it's people complaining about twitter. Treat it like cable TV. It's a relic. Once you stop worrying so much and so hard about what other people say, your life will change. It won't just improve your home life, it will improve your job performance, and you'll have so much more free time. Just delete Twitter. It's ok. Nobody will know because nobody goes on there anyway, right? Leave these normie platforms behind. Nobody came to the internet to participate in the discussion that is taking place there. Just don't go.
Or people could start recognizing their poor behavior and change it. That would be better.
When I'm on the internet I try to attenuate my expectations and match them to the environment I'm in. Yes, I agree that the world would be great if there were fewer folks out there shading each other, but I go forward in life knowing that they're out there - mindful of their presence, but not fearful of it, and certainly not trying to police it.
We're different people.
I suggest people change their behavior in ways that encourage them to think critically and treat others better.
You suggest they stop using social media altogether.
You may not be policing the same behavior I am, but you are certainly doing the thing you claim you don't.
Hm okay, a little thought experiment: if the whole story would have played out in exactly the same way, only Sara was a white dude - but for the rest we're keeping all of the details of the story the same - would Adam's reaction have been any different?
My intuition says no, which means that the racist/sexist interpretation of these events falls flat. Which does NOT mean that "white dude" entitlement or privilege in tech or development doesn't exist - I'm sure it does! But we shouldn't become so paranoid as to see it literally anywhere we look, even when there's no real evidence.
This has already been explored in other threads. Thanks!
Lol okay, well my conclusion was already that this sort of discussion probably isn't my cup of tea, anyway have a nice day.
You, too. Sorry for not taking the time to explore this again specifically with you, I'm honestly just mentally exhausted. Have a great week!
If the article & critique didn't bother Adam.... why did her sharing it bother him? Is she not 'allowed' to join in the discussion?
I think this Dev article is right on the money.
It's like someone shot a Nerf dart at him. That didn't bother him. Then someone talked about the Nerf dart & THAT bothered him. What.
(Oh jeez. They're talking about my stuff.)
Whoa. I had no idea that Adam Wathan even read the post I wrote. Don't get me wrong - I stand by my criticisms of Tailwind, but it was not my intention to ruin anyone's day.
I hope that Mr Wathan knows that I'm attacking the work, not the man, and that I'm not doing so out of a desire to drag him or his team down, but to point out what I believe to be significant flaws in Tailwind when it comes to the type of large projects that Tailwind is targeting.
I suppose I could have -- should have -- made it more clear that there is room to address the issues I found in Tailwind. That while I don't find it adds value, that there's no reason that it couldn't... if the concerns were addressed. Some later iteration or related solution could provide both what Tailwind promises (easy styling) without the drawbacks I pointed out.
I still think SCSS and CSS-in-JS are imperfect solutions, though they're (IMO) the best we have right now. We need people like the Tailwind team looking for better ways.
I do think that Wathan and his team are actually primed - and have the knowledge and experience - to truly solve problems in the web styling space, and I do think that CSS is too overly complex and verbose. There should be a better way and I have confidence that if Wathan and his team look for it, they will find it. If I'm trying to convince them of anything by my criticism, it's that I think they're currently looking in the wrong direction and to try to back up and see if there's something they missed.
Yeah, I'm sorry about that. A bit of a peek inside the author's bias - I used to be a content marketer from 2006-2013, before I switched to programming in 2014. So I suppose when I blog, I'm in the habit of writing to maximise engagement -- i.e., I'm blunt and trying to provoke discussion. Not argument for argument's sake, but discussion. It's still my "default" writing style.
Thanks! :)
Obviously, Adam (and the lot of aggravated developers on both sides flinging abuse at one another) was being (not saying is absolutely, always) a little immature in needing validation without the tolerance for criticism my employees at a holistic pet food company I worked for a few years ago as a manager were expected to have for minimum wage jobs putting dog food bags on shelves.
He should spend some time trying to break into development after spending 8 years in completely unrelated fields, pursuing degrees that he discovered led to a lifestyle he knew he would hate and teaching himself computer science while starving and facing constant rejection at every level for no good reason with a lot of suggestions its because he is older when he is only 30 and looks 25. Its been a powerful source of internal growth for me for the last three years....
Its weird to me that everyone has the time and mental energy to squabble back and forth about Adam's hurt feelings and Sara's greedy farming for advertisement revenue (or exposure). Personally, I spend all of my time and excess energy learning new things, working on personal projects and when even that is too much I have plenty to do with my self-education in Linux I can do, thus am exhausted by even the notion of engaging in the furious gossip wars that seem to be perpetual for those who were luckier than I and discovered this calling earlier in life, at an age recruiters respected more. I feel if I were to fall behind in my daily toils, I would be certainly doomed to reach a completely unemployable age like 35 without being selected for elevation out of poverty and rotating Airbnbs. It certainly must be nice to have the time and energy for all this. I hope to one day experience such lofty excess, though I doubt I would allocate that additional energy to such endeavors as this, so help me God.
Your criticism may be valid but the big words in the title dilute the message. Not sure it’s racism. Or sexism.
Just a passive aggressive guy who didn’t like his work criticized.
Don’t see value pushing this story, Dev editors.
I agree with some people here who pointed out that both sexism and racism are complex social issues that inherently bleed into our behaviors. However, we have to understand that these kinds of problems are not being solved like that. You do not have to be aggressive to prevent or reduce sexism or racism. Nowadays, there are two susceptible subjects, where one word might change the entire situation, so we must be very attentive to what we are saying and so on and so forth. I have recently met a great person in Karim Jivraj. He is a lawyer, and his defiant stance against racialist ideologies is nothing less than stunning and controversial for some other people. So, if you really want to learn what racism is, how to combat it, or have faced racial abuse, you can call for him. He will help you. You can find his cv and some additional info about him on crunchbase.com/person/karim-jivraj. Trust me, this man is incredible. He is one of the most intelligent people that I have ever met.
Now? This has been going on for years.
I'm going to assume that this statement here was meant not to be about my choice of words and judgement, then? Can you clarify whose words and judgement you are questioning?
I have not done any of this? I'm talking about my post itself, and my "space" for those posts, both here on DEV.to and in my brain.
Your opinion is being critical of me, and this platform. I am challenging that criticism, and being critical of the way you've approached me as I understand it. Your last statement that "intellectual debate" is "lost here" is offensive, whether you realize it or not.
I think its sad to be able to get sad aka 'my day ruined' over such a thing. If you build something there will be haters and that's because it doesn't fit their use cases or whatever the reason.
A lot of people praising the thing doesn't mean it is without flaws. Some people have to have their ego checked and get down on the ground.
Sharing criticism with the world (let's say someone with big number of followers) is just shining the light on the shortcomings of the framework for some use cases. I see nothing wrong in that but I guess Adam does!
It was his opportunity to act classy and to do the next step (address those shortcommings or even to say something like tailwind has its use cases, for everything else there are tons of other options that may be a better suit), but in the end all he did is feeling offended. Being a snowflake can be really toxic.
I read the original article and I agree with it as it was the same reasoning why I didn't used tachyons css on a project several years ago when tailwind didn't exists(conceptually it is the completely same thing).
When I saw Tailwind, first thing that come to my mind was, hey it is tachyons-css again, never knew they rebranded and then I saw it was not the same people!
Those two are similar things, but Tailwind got a lot more attention and I always asked myself why.
I guess Tailwind got more attention because the (currently) most popular PHP framework team provided a marketing boost for it from my understanding. And there are loads of framework users on that "mailing list" ready to jump at the next framework that markets itself and the next best thing.
Aside from the bullying that Sarah has received from whoever folks (which is horrible), what I see is a man that took it personally and couldn't resist sharing his feelings, not a sexist/racist response.
What if you are the sexist and racist one for assuming all of this based on Adam being a white man talking to a non-white woman? Do you have that perspective of things in mind?
Nope! Because I wasn't calling him either of those things. I clarify that in some other threads here, and I welcome you to explore those conversations.
This isn't really an open forum. The URL for this post lives on my account on DEV.to's servers. We are the ones with the right to control what content gets to live here. I have the express autonomy to engage when and if I feel it's appropriate to.
I struggle with your viewpoint here because you are questioning my use of the words racism and sexism and how that was interpreted by some readers, but then you misuse the term censor in a way that seems hyperbolic, but I assume comes from your own limitations in understanding what you are implying.
You seem to be operating under the assumption that this is a public forum to openly share thoughts, but it's not. I get an email for every single reply here, and there are nearly 200 comments. Add in hundreds of Twitter DMs and replies. Personal emails. Instagram DMs. There is literally zero space for me to step out of the conversation (which I'm not complaining about, only illustrating), nor to shut it down entirely. You can step in and out of the conversation, as though it were an open forum. You choose what to read, and only are notified of replies to you, which are limited.
This just cannot ever be the case, because this is not an open forum. While the moderators have a duty to adhere to the Code of Conduct and remain objective in determining whether or not content is destructive, the person hosting the content on their account, and thus fielding any and all comments, destructive or otherwise, will always and should always be able to maintain their personal preferences in what stays open for discussion. The fact that any of us engage in disagreement, and even what can be interpreted as destructive commentary, is a bonus, and nothing we should feel entitled to.
"While Adam may not be consciously aware of what he's done, his response to Sara is absolutely rooted in his own biases to give the benefit of the doubt only to folks like himself."
Cher, I thought you might have a typo in your Dev.to bio (Isn't it "Principal Engineer"?), but after your thoughtful piece I think you may indeed be paid by Apple to be a Principle Engineer, focusing on the best principles for workplace culture. Hopefully that is indeed what they pay you for.
When I read articles like these, it reminds me how I am so glad I don't live in the USA :)
Thanks Cher, appreciate you sharing your insights. Thoughtful and well written.
You can check her out on Twitter for her feelings on the matter.
Again, she did not write the article.
This is about his comment, and why he felt empowered to write that comment and is enabled to continue to uphold that comment without apology.
The word 'Toxic' is becoming hackneyed.
Thank you for chiming in, Ella!
My pleasure! The DEV Team and I would be happy to answer any questions anyone may have about DEV at yo@dev.to - feel free to direct them our way!
God point😉
Gender and racism has no place in this conversation and I'm tired of people making everything about it.