This discussion is mainly for women in tech careers. Have you ever faced discrimination at any stage in your tech studies or career due to your gen...
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Unfortunately, I have a long list of micro-aggressions (comments and jokes that are just not it) and discrimination (actions that negatively impacted my career) as a woman in tech. Things are a lot better where I'm at now, thankfully.
Started a job. On my first day: "Well now that a woman works here, someone will take care of our office plants." I am not a plant caretaker or office facilitator, I'm a developer. And I've killed every plant I ever owned at home.
Introduced as "our programmeuse" when I'm just here trying to do my job as a dev, please stop singling me out for my gender.
"Good morning ladies!" (to the whole team) "Ah ladies is a denigrating introduction, haha." Why exactly?
"Now that (other female colleague) doesn't work here anymore, I guess Daniëlle will take care of the dirty dishes." "We should put all the mugs on her desk!" As a principle I refuse to clean up after male colleagues who are too lazy to even open up a dishwasher and put their mug inside, or empty out the dishwasher. (Unless that is a task evenly distributed amongst genders.) I was trying to solve a really complex problem at the time too, so this idea that my time would be better spent cleaning up after men had me infuriated. I spoke up about it, and that may have contributed to my contract not getting renewed.
"I can't see you in a leadership position, you just don't have... the natural dominance it takes." "And why is that?" "Well, you know."
After I applied for a job somewhere: "Our team doesn't think you'll fit in as a female developer since we have a real bro culture and you would probably not feel at ease here." (This is discrimination per the Dutch constitution and I seriously considered filing a report; however I didn't because I was afraid I would get a bad reputation as a 'troublesome woman' in the Dutch dev community.) (The company went bankrupt a year later, what a shame.......)
A manager casually joking about sexually harassing female Jehovah's Witnesses that came to his door. In this case at least, literally everyone else at the table was also super uncomfortable.
Being repeatedly asked if a position as project manager, doing something more 'social' or 'soft' wouldn't be better for my natural female talents. FFS?
"Discrimination doesn't exist. The word itself just means 'discerning a difference' anyway." Guess we'll throw out over a hundred years of studies on the mistreatment of marginalized groups, you're so right dude.
And of course the: says something in a meeting -nobody notices- a man repeats it -people applaud his idea, joke, or comment* Countless times.
Like I said, things are a bit better nowadays. It seems there is a lot more awareness even among male devs that a lot of these behaviours are not cool. Unfortunately a lot of these also come from managers that probably grew up in a 'bro culture' or fraternity kind of environment, and it's much more challenging when the person giving you this kind of crap is also your superior.
A lot of companies these days invest their time and effort into setting up a Code of Conduct and even having a DE&I team to create awareness and take a stand. At my current job I took the initiative to do exactly that. It's honestly been great to work somewhere I don't have to deal with the BS I had early in my career.
Wow, I feel this - thank you for sharing. I know you label these micro-aggressions but reading them feels like "micro-aggression" doesn't give it the importance it deserves. It's inspiring that you took the initiative to create DE&I programs at your company!!
That's terrible and I'm sorry that happened to you
i am sorry you had to go through these and thanks for sharing!
My wife and I left a company because of moral harassment and discrimination.
I don't want to give detail here, but anyway.
I have a few advices to give if you think you suffer from discrimination:
I think some won't like what I will say, but learn to sort things out. Don't hide behind your gender to explain everything. Being ignored when proposing an idea, or being refused a leadership position also happen to men. That's called lack of charisma, not discrimination. If you fight against the wrong enemy, you will lose the important battles.
You said:
I disagree. For me, if I were refused a leadership position, it wouldn't be related to my gender -- it'd be related to my lack of leadership ability alone.
On the other hand, a woman who commented above said she was asked if "doing something more 'social' or 'soft' wouldn't be better" for her "natural female talents."
While charisma does play a role @blunket, I'd be very careful to say a woman not getting a role is only due to her "lack of charisma". Women being refused a leadership position due to their gender is a common phenomenon([the Pew Research Center shows this])(pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/0...), so work does need to be done in that regard.
@cbid2 I was not saying anything about that myself. I meant to quote-reply to that part of the comment above. I firmly disagree with the quoted text.
Sorry about this misunderstanding. I just edited my comment to try and be clearer.
yes!
Ahh thanks for clarifying @blunket. Yes, your comment is much clearer now! :)
thanks for your insights!
Discrimination? Personally, no, at least not while looking for work. I think become a woman has actually helped in that I stood out in certain jobs I applied to for being female (in the past 8-9 years). At least in the initial application stage. But I've always felt a bit of a complex about this, and make it a point to prove early on that I'm also a good developer and I'm not just going to look like i was hired for being a mediocre female dev.
As far as like sexism is concerned, one of the first places I worked was a scrappy startup and I was very junior at the time. Their CEO was very kind and meant well but the group clearly wasn't used to having a woman around and it showed - sexist comments were common (amongst themselves for the most part, it was more like they spoke and acted as if they would in a locker room or something). So nevertheless I left after a couple weeks. I probably could have made a big thing of it, or mentioned to them that if they want to diversify their team they should act a bit more professional, but to be honest I just knew it wasn't going to be a good fit and took a different role.
thanks for sharing!
It is really difficult.
We have to study harder, work better and keep showing our value, and still, in the end of the day, there still will be people who will think we are not meant to work in the area.
I recommend you to find like minded women, it is good to have people who you can talk to and understand your pain
thanks for your advice, it is very helpful!
That sucks, Nandini, I am sorry for you.
We still have a long way to go until we can see each others as humans and celebrate our diversity. It hurts even more when other women treat us badly, because we naturally think of them as allies. Unfortunately, the current structures are supporting competition, not collaboration. We can easily fall into the trap of seeing other women as our direct competitors rather than allies, because of the "trophy women programmer role".
What Iearned through my career is that you generally have two choices:
Please don't give up, I know it's hard but we need you to help make it better for the next generations.
thanks for your advice!
I'm sorry you've gone through all this. I grew up programming as a hobby my whole childhood, and then landed a job when I was 19 after being self-taught my whole life prior to that. There were only two other programmers there at my first job. One of them was a woman.
The other one was a man, and he undermined everything she did and ignored all of her advice and her input constantly. Yet, he was the one causing problems all the time for her to fix, whereas she was great at her job. Fortunately justice was served and he was let go about 2 months after I started there. I kind of think I was hired to replace him.
In my first 6 months at that job, I learned more from that woman than I'd ever taught myself before that point. So in a sense, I attribute almost my entire foundations in programming to a woman. I've never worked with another woman in tech since then. She worked there for 13 years but has since switched careers entirely. She was so good at her job, and yet she didn't even seem to like programming very much, and she was sick of feeling the exact harassment and discrimination you're talking about too.
I do know several other women who have tried to get into tech but who have given up, oftentimes because they think they're "not smart enough." Sometimes they also cite discrimination as a reason too. Makes me really upset.
thanks for sharing this, it is very insightful!
I was working on an project at a customer facility (major US defense contractor), porting some code to run on newer hardware. It was me and a few guys from a third company working together. The customer lead was an over the top misogynist. He repeatedly tried to trick me into walking in front of an infrared camera (you could see through clothes), made constant sexual jokes and direct comments to and about me. At one point, he put his hand in the chair I was about to sit in. It was daily for about 3 months. I told my company about it, but they didn't want to risk a huge contract. I was a single parent and didn't want to risk losing my job.
At another job where I was running the engineering department of a design and manufacturing facility, I was told by a female friend from a different department that one of the guys I managed was telling everybody I was a lesbian and making jokes about it. I was not in a relationship (no conjecture could be made) and had not discussed my sexuality. I hauled him into my office and scared the hell out of him. He knew I could have gotten him fired. I made him squirm and gravel. I would definitely handle it differently today, but at the time, there was some satisfaction in it. I quit not long after that.
Too many microaggressions to list and I see many of them already called out by others.
I'm sorry for the difficult times that you faced, I hope your path is smoother in the future!
There is undoubtedly discrimination in the workplace, and it's a multifaceted issue. A significant part of this stems from the inevitable complexities of human interaction, especially in professional settings. Many individuals carry the impacts of childhood trauma into their adult lives, which can sometimes manifest as problematic behaviors in the workplace. This creates a challenging environment for their colleagues.
One of the core issues is the lack of effective intervention. Employees are often left to navigate these difficult dynamics without adequate support. Managers frequently either overlook or are ill-equipped to address these behaviors effectively. This is compounded by the fact that many companies lack robust systems for managing such issues.
Providing access to resources like therapy could be a step in the right direction. It would not only support those struggling with past traumas but also create a healthier, more understanding work environment for everyone. However, this is just one piece of a larger puzzle. Organizations need to develop comprehensive strategies to tackle discrimination, which includes training, awareness, and strong policies that are actively enforced.
It's crucial for companies to recognize and address these challenges head-on, fostering a culture where all employees feel valued, respected, and supported.
yes, so true!
Thanks for posting about this topic @nandinishinduja! :) This is a conversation that needs to continue. During International Women's Month, I wrote a discussion post on Dev.to where I question and express my frustration in the lack of visibility that womxn-owned/maintained open source projects
Where are all the womxn-owned open source projects?
Christine Belzie ・ Mar 17 '23
I am sorry about what that person commented, he is obviously wrong. Thanks for sharing this!
Yes, that's true for men as well. Working in a team can be challenging when someone lacks common sense in their communication. 😓
I am very sorry to hear that. Sadly, a lot of people in tech seem to be overgrown children. Sharing stories like yours is the first step in the right direction. Thank you for that and stay strong.
thanks!
How was that a harmful deflection? It's what I believe. What part of my post supports what you said in your comment? I'd be happy to make it clearer.
You never said "women and men" should be nice to everyone. you specifically told me to be nice to people and i am a woman talking about the issues i faced as a woman. so u told women to be nice to people even if people are being bad to them.
Alright, I'll make it more clear.
Thanks Mike! I really appreciate your comment!
Hey Nandini! It's been about a week since we spoke here, and I just wanted to let you know that I'm sorry if I was too critical. I wish I had been more empathetic to your experiences and receptive to the feedback from others from the start. While I might not agree with everything you believe, I'll be more respectful and considerate of your position, and remember this in the future. Hope you all enjoy the rest of your week!
Have a happy new year, too!
Happy New Year!
Thank you, you too!
You should tell them what they did. That way, they know to stop doing what they did to you, and you can keep it from happening to other people. And if you were nice to them, that is good!
How is it harmful?
thanks for sharing!
I have encountered more impressive and excellent female programmers than male programmers in my career.
You shouldn't be troubled by the ignorance of others.
I'm not troubled by the ignorance of others, I'm troubled by their ill-treatment towards me.
It's not their fault at all! It's because we live in a fallen world. I don't contribute to the problem of gender discrimination. I did listen to her complaints, and I feel sorry that she had to go through it. I also feel that everyone should be kind to people, no matter what. My religious beliefs are certainly not irrelevant. They are completely relevant to this issue, as they affect my worldview. Everyone has religious beliefs that do this.
Thanks a lot for this comment Mike, it has helped me a lot and I think it will help many other people. It is so nice to see someone who is actually being so kind and helpful because sharing these experiences was not easy for me and these experiences still scar me and make me question my self-worth a lot of times but your comments just helped me so much and made me realize that there are kind people in this world who can empathize with other people's pain.
You don't have to worry about your self-worth at all. You are infinitely valuable. No matter what, you are also valuable to God. Also, I care about you. As I said, I'm sorry that you went through what you went through. I hope you understand that I do sympathize with you, and that what happened to you was wrong.
I don't know how much butthurt and fragility I've encountered from men who are more experienced than me.
It's an exhausting and weird price to pay for becoming more or less competent after being on many chopping blocks.
Got no time to waste 🗑️
I did not understand what you are saying, could you tell it in a simpler way please?
Can you please give me a legitimate, logical reason to? I thought DEV was accepting of all opinions, and I'm trying to be nice here.
Pronouns would disclose my gender, which is personal info I don't want online.
It is not. Have a nice day!
How am I playing word games? And how can you tell me that I'm not a woman?
In what particular way did I deflect your question? Perhaps I simply didn't understand what you were asking. Ask me again and I'll be happy to answer.
How have I shut them down? Feel free to talk about anything!
I have to say that I don't agree that I'm doing what was being done in those articles.
It's not about myself. (Although if it is for women, and I identify as a woman, then it technically is). It's about the issue of discrimination.
I'm not saying that you can't tell them what they've done. You can tell them that you don't approve of their actions, but you will continue to be nice to them anyway.
i never said i was not nice to these people. in fact, i never even told them that what they did bothered me. i just shared my experiences here.
I've read that, what part of it am I violating and how?
You've clearly misunderstood DEV's code of conduct if you think you're in alignment with it right now -- given that your post has been flagged for having broken it.
Your refusal to reveal your gender in a context where it's relevant, combined with things like having your pronouns set to "Dude, seriously?", is quite telling enough. Your comments on this post here have been nothing but harmful, and they would make perfect evidence of the original post's entire point.
And if you're genuinely confused, it's because this:
... reads a lot like: "since it never happened to me, it couldn't have happened to you."
Your inexperience with discrimination isn't relevant to OP's experience with it.
OK, I'll edit that part. But I don't understand what is wrong with playful pronouns or keeping my gender (personal info!) private.
I do see:
How is my advice harmful, and why should I not share it? Any discussion about this issue with a Christian is religious.