Impostor syndrome

Let's talk about something most developers feel at some point, but not many enjoy admitting out loud: impostor syndrome.

You know the feeling: someone calls you a senior and asks for your opinion. Or, even worse, trusts you with an important task, and your brain immediately goes: "OK, OK, act cool... but what if they find out I actually have no idea what I'm doing?"

That's exactly what my friend and I discussed in our podcast episode. We dug into what impostor syndrome looks like in real life, how it shows up for developers specifically, and why it may not be entirely bad news. In fact, a bit of that healthy discomfort can be the thing that keeps us learning, improving, and not turning into complacent keyboard zombies.

You can listen to the episode here if you'd like, and below is the TL;DR for folks that still read in "this day and age" of summarization tools and whatnot 😅 🤗

1. Most of us compare our backstage to everyone else's highlight reel

One of the most useful ideas in the episode is this: we often assume that other developers know everything, while we only see our own gaps.

But in reality, each of us has a different box of knowledge. Mine isn't identical to yours. Yours isn't identical to mine. The problem is that when someone talks confidently about the things they know well, it's easy to conclude that they're operating on some superhuman level.

Usually, they're not. They just have a different box.

2. Seniority does not mean instant mastery

Another important point: being experienced does not mean knowing everything on demand.

Sometimes a task looks programming-related on the surface, but once you start pulling on the thread, you realize it depends on three other topics, and each of those depends on three more. Classic software development stuff. A tiny rabbit hole turns into an underground metro system 🚂

Not knowing something immediately is not proof that you're a fraud. Often it just means the problem is deeper than it first appeared.

3. A little impostor syndrome might actually be useful

This was probably my favorite part of the discussion.

Instead of treating impostor syndrome as something we must completely eliminate, we explored the idea that it can be helpful in moderation. It can push us to keep learning. It can keep us humble. It can stop us from getting too comfortable and assuming we've "arrived."

Of course, too much of it becomes paralyzing. But a small amount? That may be the fuel.

4. Deliberate practice beats repetition

There's a difference between simply doing something over and over and deliberate practice.

Repetition is just repetition. Deliberate practice means paying attention, noticing what happened, correcting course, and improving intentionally. Whether it's programming, music, martial arts, or even card magic, the principle is the same.

You don't get better just because time passed.
You get better because you practiced with intent and feedback.

5. Start small, stay consistent, build the habit

Improvement usually starts in a very unglamorous way: slooooooowly.

Not with some heroic, life-changing burst of motivation.
Not with "this time I'll practice four hours a day forever."
Just small wins. Repeated.

That may be boring advice, but boring advice is often the stuff that actually works. Annoying, I know. But works with everything.

Final thought

If you've ever felt like everyone else understands more than you do, welcome to the club. You're very much not alone.

And maybe that feeling does not mean you're failing.
Maybe it means you still care.
Maybe it means you're still growing.

That's not such a bad place to be.

Take care 🤗

Transcript

Hey, guys, and welcome to another show of the DevThink podcast with you, your hosts, Nikola and Shawn. Today we're going to talk about a topic that, let's say, in my opinion, a lot of people don't want to talk about. It's the topic of the impostor syndrome. So how do you like today's topic, Shawn? Oh, I don't know why anybody would avoid talking about it. I love talking about it, and I love pointing it out in others on a regular basis. It just doesn't occur to me that it afflicts me just as badly, if not worse.

Yeah. It's actually funny because, you know, I mean, I would say that both of us, like, output quite a lot. Right? I mean, of course, we're not, you know, as they say, 100 x developers or anything, but I'd like to think of myself that I actually do meaningful work, my output is quite a lot, I would like to think. But there's this thing that's by actually defining the impostor syndrome is that I kinda, like, feel that I'm still not living up to the expectations. Whose expectations? Well, honestly, mine.

And that's kinda like the definition of impostor syndrome, meaning that you're always kinda like lagging behind. Although, maybe your even your peers are saying, hey, dude. You're awesome. Right? Yeah, actually my understanding of it is a little different. Is actually not your expectations, is other people's perception. If people say oh yeah, you're a senior developer, you must know what you're doing and you're like oh my god I'm really not that good and I got lucky. Or, you know, the people who hired and promoted me weren't programmers, and they don't know how bad I actually am.

And I'm kind of, you know, I'm pretending. And that's what I think that's what I take impostor syndrome to be. Maybe thinking that you're not living up to your own expectations. Yeah. That's a whole that may be related. It may be part of it. But my main thing is other people's image of you and you thinking that that's not true. Okay. Okay. I get it. So, basically, how do we fight this? How do we I mean, you know, how do we deal with it? Well, see, that automatically let me I wanna go back to something you said before about how you like to think that your output is, you know, pretty the quantity is better than, like, a one x developer or somewhere near your standards.

And that's interesting because I don't care at all about the quantity of my output. I care about the quality of my output. And the way I see it is, if you and I do the same task and or maybe that's not a good example. If a junior developer and I do the same task, even if it takes us the same amount of time, I would like to think that mine would be less likely to have bugs. If it did have bugs, it would be easier to understand and fix and maintain. And that the junior person's attempt, even if it worked, would be harder to read or would show some obvious signs of not getting some underlying principles or even little things like not knowing the best way to use the tools and language that they were using.

So, I mean, it could be both. Maybe it's different for different people. I mean, the biggest thing for me with impostor syndrome is there's a a really funny picture I saw. It's what I know versus what I think other people know, and it shows, like, my everyone else's circle is huge. And then it says the reality, and it shows, you know, my circle and everyone else's circle, and we all have the same size circle. The difference is they all they don't overlap completely. So if if you could if you could somehow take everything I know and put it in a box and take everything you know and put it in a box, we'd have the same size box.

But 90% of the stuff in my box, you don't know. And 90% of the stuff in your box, I don't know. We have that 10% overlap. So if I talk to you 10 times and I tell you about ten, fifteen, 20 different things that I'm interested in or know about and you know none of them, you're gonna walk away thinking, oh my god. I'm I'm not even smart enough to talk to this guy. He knows, like, everything. But, no, I just know the same as you. I just don't know the same list of things as you. And I really think that's the biggest one of the biggest pieces of impostor syndrome.

So, so I wanna go back to your your question about fighting it, but since I just said a lot of stuff, do you wanna jump in with anything? Yeah. Sure. So one thing, to, let's say, correct myself, By output, I actually meant so the good proper output. So everything so for example, you said junior developer. He would probably never add unit tests and anything like that. You know? When I set my like, when I use me as an example, I meant all of that. So let's say, you know, output if you compare the senior devs, then I would say, more output on that kind of level.

But, anyways, one thing that actually so kinda like in the defense of this impostor syndrome, I would kinda think that by thinking the whole time that you're, you know, kinda like not good enough or that you're basically faking it, it's actually kind of good because that somehow keeps you going. You never rest. And let's be honest, if you kinda, like, live on your laurels or what's the exact expression, you will, in software development field, just be become obsolete sooner or later. That's what I think.

Yeah. It's funny because, literally, the only thing I had left to say on my notes from what you said in the beginning, how do we fight it, is I'd argue that it's it's a good thing and we shouldn't be fighting it because if you, as you say, you know, rest on your laurels, you don't improve, but also you just become you and you become complacent. But when you're not trying, you're not striving, you're just phoning it in. And, you know, if you wanna do that, you know, you should be working in a factory.

Because there, you go through the motions, then you can go home and play your video games or write your code or play soccer or whatever it is you do. But to be a developer, it's a very it's a special kind of field. And I forget if we talked about this before, but I notice a huge overlap. There's a lot of similarities among these things. Programming, martial arts, music, and magic. And by magic, I mean, sleight of hand, card tricks, coin tricks, this kind of stuff. And they're all the same, and I find that if you find someone who's into one of those, they are probably into two or three of the other ones.

And the way that they're similar is that in each of those, you will never be done. You can never be the best. You will never know everything. And the more you know, the more you realize there is to know that you'll never know. And so it just gets deeper and deeper the more effort you put into it. So it's a journey. It's a mentality. It's something that you have to be passionate about to do well. There are plenty of developers that aren't passionate. They go to school. They take a Java class. They apply for a job as an entry level developer.

And if they get it, they use whatever tool set, whatever stack, whatever programming languages that employer uses, never learn anything new, do their job from nine to five, and go home. That's not the kind of people that I consider to be a true developer, just like if someone, you know, learned three magic tricks and did them for the rest of their life, or someone took one year of a martial arts class and then said that they were, you know, self defense expert. You know, it's I I just see all of them having this huge or, you know, musical instrument.

If you play an instrument for a year, you take three lessons and then you decide to, you know, put yourself on stage and charge money for it. It's people are gonna be able to tell the difference. And you may be able to make a living, but I just don't see it as something that, you know, is good for you or the industry. Awesome. I agree. And, actually, through, through kinda, like, materials that I read about, they use the term craftsman. So you should improve daily in your field, and that kinda, like, makes you a craftsman.

Although, like, the actual term may vary, from the source to source. However, what I would like to say here is, okay. So we're in it. You know? We're in it for the long term. We really want to improve and everything, but how do we do that? And I came across a term called deliberate practice. Meaning, how do you, for example, golf? How do you improve your swing? Well, so that you literally nail down this one particular swing, not one, not two times, let's say thousand times, and so that it base basically becomes, muscle memory.

So okay. How do we okay. Cool. Right? So that's kinda, let's say, something that some kind of a sports thing. But how do we do that? How do we devs do that? Well, here's the thing. There's a thing called, KATAS. I may butch be butchering this term, but software KATAS, where also goes, as you said, very funny thing, a parallel to the martial arts, right, where you basically complete these steps of, steps, in lack of better words, over and over again. And, literally, you can see when the master does it and when the student does it, that only started, you know, and learned this kata, you will see such an immediate difference that it's unbelievable.

So software devs, what do we do? Well, you have a set of certain problems that, let's say, you can solve in, let's say, half an hour. But what it helps is that you tend to solve these kind of problems on their, let's say, semi regular basis because you know? So you let's say, for example, you learned the factory pattern, but then you haven't used it in, let's say, two years, right, because whatever reason. And it would be good that you actually you know, every, let's say, you know, few months, you revisit and, like, for example, you come to work in the morning, and first thing that you do, oh, let me let me write a test, driven development kind of Kata for, you know, whatever.

Of course, this takes time and preparation, but I would believe so. I didn't do the research on that, but I think I saw somewhere that there are katas like that that you can already, you know, go in and try and do them. So as a summary of this, deliberate practice is the term if you want to, you know, explore more. And in terms of software programming or software engineering kinda like field, try to do the so called katas. Yeah. So I have also heard the term deliberate practice and an important thing that I am sure you know and meant, but you didn't specifically say is, a deliberate practice is not simply repetition.

Oh, yes. Yeah. It's not repetition isn't good enough. What you have to do is you have to observe what you're doing And correct the course. Observe the outcome and modify your, you know, your actions. And I read a really good book that I have never mentioned to you before. It's called First Learn to Practice by a guy named Tom Heaney, who was a is a lifelong musician and as well as he tunes pianos for, like, orchestras for, like, major stage productions and things like that. And he talks about a lot of things.

He gave one example of archery that in the Olympics, for example, if you were to watch an American archer take a shot and then miss, you can clearly see that they're frustrated or disappointed or upset about it. Whereas if you watch people from other countries, us particularly Asian countries, and I forget exactly which one whether he said it was like South Korea or something, that they they do what they do. They look at it. Look at it. They take that knowledge in without judgment without judgment, and then they go again.

You know? And if you do that, the frustration doesn't help you. It doesn't teach you. It only makes it worse. So I definitely recommend the book. It's first learned to practice by Tom Heaney. I bought it on Kindle. When you mentioned Yes. Sorry. When you mentioned, the archers, I remembered one post by James Clear. We haven't mentioned him before. I don't know if I mentioned him to you before. I really like his writing. The guy literally takes, let's say, a complex topic, and he kinda, like, explains it in a very simple way.

You know? But it's still the guy does a lot of research. He links to a lot of additional research. I'm gonna share that link with you. I can't remember the exact name of the post, but it was definitely something with these archers. And I believe that that term is for martial arts, the zanshin, kinda like the focus to whatever you're doing. But, yeah, it ties into this deliberate practice, which you're right. I did not mention the very, very important part of not just you know, you don't you're not supposed to just come to practice as in, you know, whatever practice, soccer practice, basketball practice, but actually see yourself how you do that's actually that's actually why, teams, when they lose or when they win, they rewatch the whole, like, video, and the trainer or the coach then tells and points out the weaknesses or why they lost or why they won and how can they improve.

Yeah. No. That's definitely, you know, a great technique. And I think the hardest part of that is not judging yourself because you failed. Because, of course, you're not gonna make a three point shot every time you make it. Of course, you're not gonna deploy something in production with zero bugs every time. And it's so easy to take it personally and feel like, well, clearly, this is evidence of me not being good enough for being a failure. It's not. It's just evidence of you not being a robot. Oh, yeah. So with this, I very much bought into the this thing called this is from John Sonmez.

He calls it trust the process where he says so this is how he explained it to his, daughter. He said, okay. So you want to draw a butterfly. Right? Here's what trust the process means. If you try to draw a butterfly, you'll probably do a very bad job for the first time, second time, third time. But I promise you this, if you go and you dedicate your mind to it, that you you're gonna do it for 100 times, somewhere along the process, you're gonna get so good and you're gonna, draw it so nice that you won't even realize that you actually do it.

I mean, you will realize it. But somewhere along the lines of, you know, you doing it for seventy seventh time, you will actually do a good job. So Yeah. You know, whatever is the topic and that that's how I kinda, like, approach everything, every, let's say, task. If it's something that I never did, I'm not gonna say, hey. I never did that. That's actually a very, very big red flag for you know, if any software dev tells tells you that, I would question his motives of being actually in this software development kind of thing.

You know? So I say, okay. I never did it, but here's the thing. I am willing to spend nights on this weekends, like, a lot of days until I get it. But here's the thing. There is no way that I'm not gonna get it. I just may need more time or less time if I'm, supposed to be comparing myself to someone. Although, I don't care. I know if I put enough work in it, I'm going to do it. And that's a very, in my opinion, very good mentality to have. Yeah. And you can't, like there's so much pressure. It's like, I'm a senior dev.

And, you know, my boss asked me to do this thing, which is something I don't know anything about, but it's programming related. So, you know, I should be able to figure this out and, you know, get it done by the end of the reality, it might take weeks or months to learn enough about because what we do is so deep. Right? It's a spider web. As soon as you go to learn a topic and that's the center of that new web for you, you realize you need to understand two or three supporting topics. And for each one of those two or three supporting topics, you might need to know two or three supporting topics.

So it may just be that it would take months, or maybe the best solution isn't to waste your time on it. Maybe you should hire a contractor. Maybe you should ask someone else to do it who's already done it. Or, you know, whatever, because you can't be expected to you know, don't don't feel like, oh, here here's the proof. I'm an impostor. They're gonna find out now that I'm overpaid or should be fired because I don't know how to do this one thing. Because I've experienced I may have experienced that in within the last year here.

And this kinda goes back to something we talked about. I won't repeat the whole thing because we did it in a previous podcast, but the whole thing about never telling a child that when they're successful that it's because they're clever. You say it's because they worked hard. Right? Because if you tell them that they're they're smart or clever or hey. You're you're good at drawing. So then if they try to draw a horse now and they can't draw a horse, they can draw a butterfly, they think, oh, yeah. I'm not really a good artist.

No. You know, you tell them, wow. It's a great butterfly. You must have practiced. You must have you must have, you know, worked really hard on that. So then when they can't draw a horse, instead of saying, I suck at drawing horses, they say, I guess I need to practice my horses more. And Yeah. One of the things that is so important that people don't either don't know or, you know, it it seems counterintuitive is that if you can practice you said, I'll practice evenings. I'll practice weekends. I'll practice for a long time.

Right. But what's implied in that is you're not gonna say, I'm gonna go home this weekend, put on headphones and blinders, and look at this for forty eight hours straight and not sleep and come in on Monday an expert because you can't do that. You need time. You need rest. You need sleep. You need a lot of things in between segments of learning. So if you spend five minutes a day on something for a month, that's way better than trying to do three hours a a week. Like, the weekend, you just won't absorb it.

Especially for something with that requires dexterity, like playing an instrument or doing sleight of hand in magic. That's not some you you can't practice for five hours straight. I mean, you can, but what you'll do is it will become not deliberate practice, but repetition. And you will train muscle memory, and you will train incorrect muscle memory. So not only will you not be able to do it correctly, but you'll have difficulty teaching yourself the to not do it in the bad way that you've developed.

So you'll almost need physical therapy and, you know, doing the the motions. And and, one other thing that I really like the idea of, if you talk about, like, you know, the evolution of humans, how we got to where we are from, you know, say our you know, the ancestors we share with apes. If you had every single skeleton or every single being from then till now, you would never be able to point to one particular one and say, hey. See right here? This one right before here was the last ape, and this one right after it was the first human.

Because it doesn't work that way. You you'll never have, like, say, a mother and say, yeah. This mother was an ape, but then she gave birth to the first human. There is no transitional fossil where this one skeleton is the missing link between x and y because it's just a smooth transition. And your your butterfly example made me think of this. If you say, hey. Go draw a butterfly every day for a hundred days, Then if the hundredth butterfly is beautiful, you will not be able to go back and say, hey. Look.

You know, butterflies one through 67 sucked, but 68 was really good. You know? It's each one is gonna be a little bit better, but there's no line you'll be able to draw there where they somehow magically you know, the last one sucked, and this one was amazing. That that actually reminded me of something. A friend of mine that's very much into bodybuilding and everything, He told me this. If you if you take the, Mistress of Olympia winners and if you take them, let's say, five years apart. So let's say Mark A is one guy.

Right? And then five years later is another guy. They will they will look okay. So maybe I mixed my, you know, five years, two years, three years, whatever. But the point is, if you take one guy and the second guy after him, they will look more or less the same. But if you take the first guy and then the third guy, they will look very much different. Yeah. There's I mean, this isn't a weightlifting podcast. Neither one of us are bodybuilders, but there is a lot of stuff. I happen to be a fan of Arnold Schwarzenegger, and I've watched a few videos about him, people have talked about, you know, what would he look like if he would he be able to even compete today with today's standards where it's nothing but size, where he was about perfect, you know, symmetry and perfect ratios of each muscle to each other muscle and even a computer generated graphic of what he would look like if he trained and used the chemicals that they use today.

So, yeah, that's just ridiculous and yeah. Completely unrelated, but I I think that the the way it is today is not only extremely unhealthy, but, you know, crazy, unattractive, and just dangerous. Yep. I would have to agree here. Frank Zane, that was the golden era. What what year was that? Like, the seventies? I honestly don't know the dates. You know, it's funny because you said Mark one, and I've heard the term so I'll I'll show my impostor syndrome. I've always heard, you know, Mark one, Mark two, like, that tells you which version it is, which edition, which release, or whatever.

And I've never in my life understood where that came from, why it's used. I just kind of hear it and I say, okay. And so I just decided to look it up and I found it on Wikipedia while you were talking. So I don't yet see the origin of it, but it seems to be very old. So yeah. I mean, I think I first heard about it in the context of, like, a vehicle, like a mark two or mark three, some kind of a racing car, and I thought it had to do with race cars. And then I heard it, you know, in Iron Man about the versions of his suit.

And it's like, oh, yeah. The Mark 14, you know, and it's okay. The fourteenth version of the Iron Man suit. And, apparently, it's just a general term that's used for everything. So, maybe some people listening to this knew that, and that's just a clear example of how a very common day to day thing that everyone knows and everyone uses, someone who you would think knew what they were doing would be able to tell you the whole history of it. Nope. Yeah. Cool. Honestly, like, I didn't even know it. As you know, I tend to pick up phrases that I hear are used, then I just try to fit and use them since, of course, English is not my first language.

But, yeah, I'm glad to have found that this fit in perfectly. Yeah. Fits perfectly, and you have every excuse because, you know, it's a colloquialism in English, and you can't be expected to know the origin of, you know, even common there are plenty of phrases that we say day to day that, you know, like if I say, hey, you know, if you wanna have lunch, let me know. Like, let me know? It means, like, literally, allow me to know or and that's probably not even the worst example that people use every single day that just make no sense in English.

And we just say it like it's normal. I mean, I know that Croatia Croatian has other crazy I mean, I know German does for sure. I assume Croatian has some really crazy ones. Any British, they say Bob's your uncle. Or is that Australian? I don't know. I don't know. Anyways, we've gone off the topic. Off the rails. Again, yep, right? Basically to sum up, honestly, if you ask me, imposter syndrome, if you have it, if you know that you have it, I would just say go with the flow. Just just just ride the wave because honestly, in my case, it's just gonna keep you keeping on.

Yeah. It holds you back. You know, I when I talk to junior developers, when I mentor people and they they are exhibiting it, I explain it to them. Most of the time, they've never heard of the topic. And I try to tell them that it's it's artificial. It's fake. And just because you're gonna limit yourself, you're gonna say, okay. I'm only this good. I'm only going to hope to one day reach this plateau that's way below you because you've been doing this for you know, you're obviously really smart or whatever.

And no. It's just I've been doing it longer is the main thing. I've been doing it longer, and I'm curious. That's it. Those are the two things. Awesome. With this, I would just like to announce another topic that we're gonna do, which ties into the so recently, I read a book. Actually, I'm still reading the book called So Good They Can't Ignore You, where, Carl Newport goes to argue that, you know, as people say, hey. You know what? You should first find your passion, what you're passionate about, and then find a job in that that deals around that.

Whereas he said that's bullshit and that you should actually first start working somewhere and work at it good and try to get very good at it. And as he says, so good that they can't ignore you. And what you will very much so in very a lot of cases, you will find out that, wow, that's actually your calling. So, basically, number of years doing something, but in a way that we're trying to do it, meaning progressing and not just, you know, clocking in the hours, you will find that that was actually your, you know, kinda like calling or what you were quote, unquote put here on earth to do.

And the second thought yeah. If Shawn, if you want to add something here. I just wanted to throw in that that is deliberate practice, like you said. And the other thing is that if you wait to be inspired or you wait to have the eureka moment, you will probably never it'll never have it. If you have something you want to do, do it every day at the same time or, you know, every three times a week when you have time after your busy schedule of doing a job you hate coming home and doing programming or whatever your passion is at night playing an instrument.

And if you show up and you sit down, try to keep yourself from getting frustrated and just work on it a little bit over time, you will get everything that you're looking for and hoping for. But don't go to the music store, buy a guitar, look at it, and expect to become over consumed with an overriding passion that I must practice this day and night until my fingers bleed. Because That's not going to come until after you sit down day and night and play until your fingers bleed. Indeed. This whole deliberate practice thing, here's the thing.

If it would be easy, everybody would do it, but it's not. And that's why they say it's lonely in the top at the top. See, I I would argue that it is easy. It's very easy. It's just that I think I don't know if it's a cultural thing or what. People like, we're not taught in school important things. We're not taught how to stay out of debt, manage money, save for retirement, how to, you know, find people that are not toxic for your life, how to find someone, you know, a good mate, how to, you know, when to be generous and when to be cautious so you don't get scammed.

And they don't teach you how to learn. They teach you what to learn. And you could argue I mean, I've heard it. I'm American, obviously. I live in The US. I was born here. Lived here my whole life. And there seems to be a kind of stereotype that Americans are raised to be employees. Our school system and our government is are designed so that we can have a steady stream of employees to industry. And our own best interests and our own entrepreneurship is not encouraged or even considered. And you have to find a mentor or you have to get lucky and, you know, get inspired by somebody at some point in your life to realize that.

So the idea of deliberate practice, if I said, you know, here, ten minutes a day, here's your instrument, here's your deck of cards, here's, you know, your martial arts class you're gonna go to an hour a day, three days a week. You do that for five years, you're gonna turn around, and you will be unbelievably better than you could have imagined on day one. Anybody. It's not hard. You just gotta put in the time. So Okay. Yeah. So then I have to say this. It's a a wordplay. So it's, easy but not simple, or would you say it's simple but not easy?

How would you say it? Okay. If you wanna play the word game like that, I would say it's simple but not easy because Okay. It's like weight loss is simple. Eat fewer calories than you consume. Exactly. But it's not easy, which we all know. Right. So yes, I was conflating simple and easy there. So yes, it is simple, but not easy, but it's not that hard. And it's the same as anything else. If you develop it as a habit, then it becomes automatic, and then it's free. Then it is simple and easy. It's gonna be simple and hard, and it's gonna become simple and easy.

And the best tip to actually start the habit, start very slow. And okay. So, like, I promise what I mean by this start very slow, you you at at first, you have to get these, let's say, small successes, which will compound to more successes, and you just doing the work. Right? Yeah. That's gonna have to be a whole another podcast about that. Exactly. Although Start with the fundamentals. Yeah. To just announce another one that we're gonna do. So basically, I concluded that I read. I like to read. I love to read.

I read quite lot, I would say, but I read very slow. Like, slow as very, very slow. And what me and Shawn are gonna do is we're both gonna take the same book. However, I'm gonna take the Croatian edition. He's gonna take the English edition, and we're gonna go through it. And we're gonna record our, let's say, weekly reports and then make them into a one podcast in the end to see how our speed has or hasn't improved. That's right. Yep. Okay. So, again, we dragged this one a bit too long, but I hope it was useful.

And till next time. See you, guys. Bye bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to the DevThink podcast. To reach us for feedback, show suggestions, or any other comments, email us at info at DevThink. That's d-e-v-t-h-dot-i-n-k.