With regard to race, software development has a serious "Black problem". No, I'm not going to describe it as a "people-of-color problem" (for reasons I'll explain below). It's very clearly a Black problem. And after more than 20 years in this career, I'm frustrated by my own lack of answers on how to fix it.
Some Basic Disclaimers
I'm an American developer, living in America, working for an American company. So I don't pretend that any of my observations are even remotely accurate in other countries/cultures. Your mileage may vary.
If you check my profile pic, you'll quickly realize that I'm "part of the problem". I'm a white, Anglo-Saxon, (raised) Protestant, straight, male. In terms of US class structures, I've "won". Or, as it's sometimes referred to, I hit the "genetic lottery".
So everything I'm writing is from the perspective of those who hold all the advantages. And I in no way pretend to speak for anyone other than myself. These observations are mine - and mine alone.
A Snapshot of the Problem
This is the racial makeup of the city I live in. It's a mid-size city of about 900k people in the American south. It has a sizable Black population - 30%.
I've been working in this city, as a software engineer, for 20 years. I'm currently working in a purely-remote capacity. But for the majority of those 20 years, I've worked at various companies, onsite, going into the office every day. So for the majority of my time here, I've worked mostly with other devs who call this city home.
In my two decades here, I've worked alongside hundreds of developers. Please keep in mind, I'm not lumping in every network and devops engineer I've worked with. Nor am I counting QA or BAs or any other role that's tangential to application development. Looking at programmers only, I've had the good fortune to call a few hundred people my coworkers.
Of the few-hundred programmers that I've worked alongside in the last 20 years, how many of them do you think were Black??
Don't worry. I won't try to make you go through some silly guessing exercise. I'll just tell you directly.
The answer is: One
I have worked with one Black software engineer, during all my time in this city. Think about that. Two decades of work. A half-dozen employers. Hundreds of past colleagues. And out of all those peers, I've worked alongside one Black programmer - in a city with a 30% Black population.
Lemme throw in a few more disclaimers here, for clarity. I'm not claiming that I've only worked with one Black person during my 20 years in this city. When we broaden the scope to include all the other job titles that typically interact with a dev team, I've worked with many Black people. (Nowhere near 30% of my colleagues - but still, "many".) And in some of my gigs, there were a few Black devs working on other teams with whom I had little direct interaction.
And as I stated above, these are my personal, anecdotal observations. I'm not claiming that there's only one Black developer in my whole city. Nor am I claiming that the percentage I've personally witnessed (less than 1%) can be extrapolated to my entire city or state. I know that there are some dev teams at other companies that have more Black devs.
But it's been a long time since anyone's mistaken me for a "junior", and I've had the pleasure of traveling around the country a bit as well. And I know that my experience is not uncommon amongst other dev teams - or amongst other regions.
Diversity(ish)
It took me a long time to understand that there may actually be any diversity problem in dev. Yes, part of my problem was that I'm a white guy - a pasty, stereotypical white guy with all of the subconscious biases that this country is still battling. But my problem also arose from the fact that I looked around at my own work environments and I saw a whole bunch of... diversity.
I'd look around and think, "Look! We've got a ton of brown people!" (This will probably shock you to the core to learn that nearly all of these "brown" people were Indian.) I've worked alongside Koreans, and Chinese, and Brazilians, and Ukrainians, and Spaniards, and... well, you get the point.
So make no mistake about it. I've worked in some very diverse environments. But when your country is 13% Black, and your city is 30% Black, and your fellow devs are less-than-1% Black, my international colleagues may still represent "diversity" - but it's "diversity" with a big ol' neon asterisk tacked onto it.
It's no secret that American software development has a whole host of diversity issues. Women are vastly underrepresented. People of almost any non-white origin are underrepresented. LGBTQIA-people are underrepresented. (Many of my teams have had the demeanor of a locker room, where white guys boldly make bawdy jokes about gays and women and anyone else in their crosshairs.)
I'm not dismissing any of those other issues. But right here, right now, with all the s*** that's currently going down in this country, I've found myself thinking more-and-more about the issue of Black under-representation in software development.
Evil Empires??
So who's to "blame" for this disparity? An easy answer is to point an accusing finger at the big, bad, evil empires of capitalism. After all, I'm not the one paying those salaries. I'm not the one who's ultimately responsible for who we hire and what backgrounds they encompass. So it must be the corporations, right???
Well... sorta.
To be clear, it's impossible to hire a staff - any staff - without earning at least some degree of responsibility for the makeup of that staff. And countless studies (and lawsuits) have highlighted the insidious degree to which systemic racism infiltrates nearly every vein of American life - including, of course, hiring.
But it's overly-simplistic to say, "Well, companies should just start hiring more Black developers." Allow me to explain...
I made the conscious decision some years ago to go back to "just" being a developer. Long story - but suffice it to say that I really wanted to get back into pure coding. But I spent many years in dev management. During that time, it's no exaggeration to say that I've sorted through thousands of resumes, interviewed hundreds of candidates, and extended offers to dozens of programmers. Here's what typically happens if you're in the market for new (American) developers.
We put up a posting for a new dev position. There's nothing about the posting that feels even the slightest bit "prejudiced" or "biased". We've all seen the postings. A few generic paragraphs about the company and the position, followed by an alphabet soup of the technologies we're using and the desired experience level in those technologies.
It's easy to imagine a scenario where such a posting might yield a hundred applicants. (This is especially easy to imagine in our current COVID-stricken economy.) In my experience, lemme tell you what those hundred candidates typically look like.
At least 90 of those candidates will be male. (As I've already stated, I'm not even touching the deep, sticky issues of gender representation in our career field.) Sure, I don't know what everyone's gender is, just by looking at their resume. But you usually know that the "Joes" are men and the "Marys" are women.
About 30 of those candidates will be clearly foreign - with many of those foreigners being Indian. Again, I realize that too many things can be inferred by simply reading names off resumes, but when the candidate is "Sanjay Vishwanathan" I pretty much know that they're Indian, or at least of Indian descent.
Of course, trying to infer someone's skin tone merely by reading the name on their resume is a fool's errand. So I definitely don't try to play that kind of racist parlor game. Instead, I just start looking at the qualifications and, after a little sifting, I hand a pile of resumes to the HR person and ask them to schedule interviews.
When the interviewees arrive, nearly all of them are white, or at least, non-Black. Just looking back at the many people who've sat in front of me for face-to-face interviews, I'd estimate that, of the original 100 applicants, 5 (or fewer) of them were actually Black.
So think about that for a minute. If 5% (or fewer) of your applicants are Black to begin with, it's quite daunting (and possibly unrealistic) to simply look at the hiring managers and say, "Well, you should really be hiring more Black developers."
If we assume that those 100 candidates are vying for a single job opening, and we assume each candidate has an equal chance of ultimately being offered a job, that means there's only a 5% chance that the most qualified candidate is indeed Black.
Even if we assume that I truly want to hire more Black developers, it's not a cut-and-dry proposition. I can't slap "Only Blacks Need Apply" on the job posting. I don't want to fall into a racist trap of trying to infer who's Black based on names or other vague data in their resume. And by the time I've whittled the applicants down to a half-dozen-or-so candidates for interviews, it's entirely possible that none of them may be Black.
And thus, through no outward malice on my part, we've once again managed to interview, and ultimately hire, yet another non-Black employee.
To be clear, if you're working for a megacorp like, say, Google, they have the resources to more proactively seek Black candidates. Hell, they could even create training programs specifically geared toward Black developers if they so choose. But most "normal" corporations are far smaller, with much more modest budgets. They have a simple problem - an open position - that they're trying to solve. And they can't "fix the world" by funding a new Black university expressly for the purpose of hiring more Black developers.
This is why it's foolhardy to deny that the issue is truly systemic. Even the most equality-minded hiring managers are still limited to the qualified candidates that actually apply.
The Myth of the Self-Made Man
Most of the devs I know don't think of this "problem" as being any kind of problem at all. Hell - if I'm being honest with myself, I haven't thought of it as any kind of real "problem" for most of my professional life. Is that because I, and all my colleagues, are horrible racist monsters? Probably not.
You see, many of us dev-types subscribe to the overall ideal of the "self-made man". The thinking is incredibly simple (yet flawed). It goes like this:
I acquired, by myself, much (or all) of the knowledge that's required to do my job.
Nowadays, especially with the steady rise of the internet over the last quarter-century, all the tools you need to learn (and master) any programming language are right there for the taking. In fact, assuming that you have solid internet access, those tools are overwhelmingly free.
When dev candidates are evaluated (and presumably, hired), this can be done based upon a series of tangible factors that have nothing to do with race. (For example, we can "test" a candidate's skills before ever extending an offer.)
I am where I am purely due to my superior knowledge/skills, and my ability to demonstrate those skills to any potential employer.
Therefore, any talk of race (or gender, or... any other factor) only serves to muddy what should be, on its surface, a completely egalitarian exercise.
Unfortunately, this thought process is severely myopic.
I had my first computer when I was 10 years old. Nowadays, many households - especially, white households - feature computers from the time a child is born. Statistics tell us that the percentage of Black households with the same luxury is... lower.
Ever since the internet was a "thing", I've always had access to the fastest-possible download speeds. Statistics tell us that the percentage of Black households with the same luxury is... lower.
I don't have a computer science degree. In fact, I don't have a bachelors degree of any kind. Every line of code I've ever written was accomplished either through my own desire to learn, or through my ability to leverage those who'd learned before me. The economic ability for Blacks to pursue this same path are... limited.
Yet, in the 90s, when my skills were solid but my experience was... lacking, I managed to get my foot in the door with some tremendous "starter" opportunities. I was given generous salaries and fast-tracked for management. Statistics tell us that, for Black candidates, the same opportunities are... rarer.
So am I some sort of societal leech? No. Was everything in my career simply handed to me because I have a pale complexion? Of course not. But for me to disavow any potential influence of race in my success would be, at best, borderline-delusional.
Why Should You Care???
If you've read this far, I'm certain that at least some of you have already pegged me as a hopeless "Social Justice Warrior" (as though that phrase is somehow something to be ashamed of). And even if you're not concerned with the prevailing political terms that we slap on "the right" or "the left", this may all feel rather disconnected from your day-to-day reality.
If you're at all like me (and if you're browsing through Dev.to articles, you're probably more than a little bit like me), your days are probably consumed by fixing a pressing bug, or designing a new feature, or managing the deliverables for your next sprint. If you're at all like me, such questions of race and/or equality can sometimes feel like a true imposition on the "real" work that you're trying to accomplish every day.
But I've reached a point in my life where I realize that these broader issues of society are never truly "someone else's problem". I have the privilege of not having to ponder these issues every day (or even most days). Yet I'm watching, in real-time, as key aspects of my own society continue to disintegrate.
I don't think that I'm "to blame" for the fact that I have a nice job, that commands a generous salary, and I live in a nice house in a coveted part of town. On any given day, I can cash my checks and throw all my energy into solving my employer's problems. Why can't the rest of the world just leave me alone and stop bothering me with these pesky issues of race???
Well... here's why. Because, in my city, 30% of the population is Black. In my city, I'm lucky enough to earn a salary that probably puts me in the top 5% of all earners. I don't make "lawyer money" or "doctor money" - but I do alright for myself. And I'm fully aware of that.
But in this same city, almost none of my colleagues - making similar money and enjoying similar professional perqs - are Black. In my city, there is 30% of the population that, for whatever reason, just doesn't seem to be able to get a foothold into this very-lucrative career field.
When 30% of the population is effectively shut out of these kinds of jobs, what do you think is the result?
You may think that victims such as George Floyd have no bearing on this discussion. You may think that universal issues such as racial equality are completely tangential to your supposedly-meritocratic life as a software engineer. And you'd certainly be entitled to such an opinion. But put this in perspective.
When there's an overall perception of fairness, righteousness, and equality, the tragedy of Floyd's death is... a tragedy. And "tragedies" are generally seen to be rare events - outliers in a world that otherwise strives to make things "right".
But when inequality abounds - when the doors to good jobs and high wages are shut - the tragedy of Floyd's death is no longer "just" a tragedy. It's a spark - a fuse - that threatens to light a powder keg of righteous indignation.
When the very core of our professional lives are so imbalanced, any other injustice only serves to inflame those who are already struggling under society's yoke. And really - can you blame them???
A Devilish Puzzle
This is the point where I must admit that this entire post is probably rather - pointless. It's "pointless" because... I don't know what "points" to leave you with. I'm struggling, every day, a lot, about what I can possibly do to improve the situation.
As I noted above, it's not like we can start hanging out signs that say, "This high-paid job is only available to Black candidates." And for most of us, in our "daily grind", the racial makeup of our teams is typically an afterthought. But it's not an afterthought to everybody.
I also want to make it clear that I'm not one of those Utopian, Silicon Valley, venture capital, head-in-the-wealthy-sand assholes who thinks that the answer to the world's problems lies in somehow teaching everyone to code. Software development is not for everyone - regardless of your level of melanin.
But I'm genuinely curious - nay, I'm searching - for things that I can do to somehow improve this situation. I've long-since realized that, even on my best days, even when I think I'm oh-so-"woke" (dear god, I hate that term), I'm still, on some level, at least somewhat racist.
Have I subconsciously been weeding out Black candidates? I don't think so - but I'm probably unqualified to make that assessment.
Am I somehow perpetuating a system that cradles me and those who look like me? I don't think so - but it's a rare bigot who stands up and says, "Hell yeah, I discriminate!"
Do I still trade in the language of microaggressions? I try not to. But I'm certain that, even to this day, I probably do at times.
I don't have any easy answers. I doubt that there are any easy answers. But I'm trying to listen. I'm trying to think about how I can cease being part of "the problem".
Latest comments (77)
To anyone interested in attracting dev talent of color, here are some suggestions for places to check out:
There are probably a lot more ways to find talent of color. It will definitely depend on where your company is as well. Maybe you and/or HR would have to go out into the world to find them, which might mean not leaning so heavily on internet applications.
Just want to end on this: talented tech people of color are out there. And tbh I don't think they would be that hard to find. If this is something any devs care about I highly recommend just trying. And if you don't know how/where to find diverse talent, well Google is your best friend and as devs we know how to use Google to solve problems. Loved the post as it was a nice discussion/read on the realities of why tech is so damn white right now haha Much love to everyone!
THANK YOU. This is an awesome response.
I'm Indian, but having lived and mingled with all races in the US 10 years ago, I think I have an idea and it's to do with it being a subculture issue. Black americans view coding as a "white people" job and I think being intellectual\nerdy is seen as "acting white" or "acting square". The fact that you said your city 30% black probably amplifies this subcultural effect. I remember following this smart black dude named Edward Latimore ( you can google him) and he'd mention how he used to get bullied for spending time in the library reading books while living in the "projects" but his parents were supportive. So, that could be a factor. Also, people feel more comfortable doing stuff where people-that-look-like-me also do it. Maybe that's one of the reasons why fewer brown kids in the US try to be actors or pro basketball players for example. African immigrants (first gen) don't seem to have this issue like African-Americans do, you can find them spread out in all occupations and be more educated in general.
IMO, races are NOT the problem when talking about jobs, specially programming.
Unlike others, programming can be both self taught and learnt at universities. The problem is, everyone can be a software engineer if they are willing to. Big corps always want to find best programmers (at my place we call them by a funny name: "coding machine") to record beautiful numbers on sales based on their KPIs. If you are black, or yellow, or white, or whatever you wanna be, you totally can be a programmer. There a thousands companies willing to pay them well with all kind of benefits.
The location where you work is also a reason why you don't usually see other races at work. I mean come on, I myself also an Asian, and I'm working for a software company in Vietnam. The chance to find a white programmer is pretty rare (at my workplace). In fact, after being a programmer from multiple companies, I only find 2-3 white colleague.
To summary, people skin color at work ain't a problem.
Been on dev.to for a while but I missed this. 6 months later this post still much appreciated. As having been the only black dev, thank you.
Late to the party.
Besides being a coder I've been a college Math instructor. Let me tell you a story. I had lots of foreign students. One was Chinese. He as not a very good student. Unfocused and maybe not much talent. While I was trying help him lift himself up he says, "You know not all Chinese are good at Math". Of course that's true, but take a minute to think about how that meme that Chinese are good at math came to be? It's cultural (i.e. systemic). Give a child the resources and immerse them in a culture where Math is promoted/revered and what happens? I've also been a public school teacher including a stint at the local juvie. I've seen first hand the affect of a poor (or unsupportive) community/school/family on students. Math was the dreaded class. When I'd meet people they would ask me what I do and I'd jokingly reply, "If you put down any sharp objects I'll tell you". That's America's meme when it comes to Math. Math sucks. When it comes to raw math aptitude are Americans (including Blacks and women) deficient. Of course not.
So you going to change that meme overnight? Doubt it. You might be able to apply some immediate band-aides that might result in a more representative staff and well one should as those folks end up being role models that will help fix the systemic problem.
What might we do, those of us who subscribe to DEV and took the time to read this article? As was mentioned in another comment we aren't going to make everyone a coder but what about those people who maybe show some aptitude but don't have the resources and encouragement they need? I think us here can begin to fix that in a realistic, doable, actionable way.
So if you tacitly agree with my observations/comments and like me you want to take some action then I guess all we need is a place to discuss. Not sure if using DEV will work for this purpose alternatively I could easily spin up a discourse site. To jump-start though I created a post so that anyone finding this and wanting be a part can comment there. dev.to/dkebler/doing-something-abo...
Here are some initial questions that could jump-start such a discussion
Excellent, insightful feedback! And, oh yeah, I especially love it cuz it kinda parallels what I've been pondering/planning in my own mind above-and-beyond anything that was mentioned in the article.
You see, I really wanted to limit the piece to being my perception of a problem. And as you know, it's a big problem and the article was already long. So I didn't want to jump into, "And here's my 42-point plan on how to address this problem."
But I have been thinking about how to do something tangible, rather than just complaining. My thoughts are very much inline with what you've mentioned.
Specifically, I'd like to start a mentoring / coding class that will try to introduce black youth to the idea that coding is "a thing", it's absolutely within their reach (if they're so inclined), and they can even do a lot to teach themselves into the career field, if they're dedicated enough.
Obviously, I wouldn't say, "This is a class for BLACK kids." (All kindsa problems that could stem from that.) But you don't even have to be that explicit. You can offer the classes at certain schools or in certain parts of town. And that would pretty much guarantee that you'd be reaching your target audience.
I also feel strongly about the idea of having real, tangible, in-person classes. As a self-taught coder, it's very tempting for me to say, "Well... all the resources are right there on the web. So there's nothing for me to do. If black folk wanna learn to code, they just go out, on their own, and do it!"
But I don't think the racial divide here has soooo much to do with tangible resources. Nowadays, there are many (relatively) poor kids who have access to a computer and the internet. But I strongly believe that the overwhelming "whiteness" of dev shops is fostered by the fact that many inner-city kids just don't think of coding as an option. They don't even consider it as a potential career field.
I think that someone (or some group) needs to be more proactive about reaching out to all races and income groups and making sure they realize that there's this highly-lucrative field that's waiting for them if they desire. The field has low barriers to entry. They can literally learn at home. But I think that too many people in bad situations don't even realize that these opportunities exist.
Adam, if it's good with you can you copy your reply to comments of my post and we can continue on there? With so many comments here it's way down the page and deserves a fresh start. dev.to/dkebler/doing-something-abo...
Came here to see what all the fuss was about, but I gotta day my experience mirrors yours. 1 black guy and it was in the Bay Area.
I think it has to do something with the song “white and nerdy” by Weird Al. All I ever aspired to be was a nerd like my dad. If you’re black you’re more likely to aspire to be, what, should I even speculate? An athlete, a musician?
I’d love to know why it isn’t pursued more often, because from what I can see black programmers get fast tracked.
Best thing I could do is mentor black kids with programming.
It means jack shit for your field how big the slice of black people is o the total population of your city. What means something is how many percent of the people graduating are black. THAT is a number you can compare to an extent. Anything beyond this is just simply not a problem or fault of your or your field.
Hiring people just because they're black or female is idiotic. No one profits from that.
I'm reminded of JFK's "affirmative action" Executive Order, where he literally phrases it as, "take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and employees are treated [fairly] during employment, without regard to their race, creed, color, or national origin." As people posing as scientists and engineers (we're generally neither, but that's what it says on our degrees and business cards and we should try to live up to that...), we actually know the form that action needs to take---measurement, analysis, and feedback, things we do every day for debugging and optimization---but usually fail to do so out of some weird metaphysical insistence that beliefs and their effects can't be quantified.
At my last job, they made a big show of overhauling the pipeline system, with a stated intent of making the office more inclusive. Instead, the overhauled system used the same people to recruit and interview from the same universities, but put more money into it to get many more white kids. A lot of those kids were great, don't get me wrong, but you don't change who you're hiring without changing your inputs and/or who conducts the interviews.
They thought I was joking, when I suggested reaching out to high schools in the less-wealthy school districts. The other idea they didn't think was serious was to skip interviews altogether, but pay them for a few hours of remote work to fix bugs on an ongoing internal project, so that we could judge their ability and demeanor (via ticket comments, commit messages, and project chat) without risking someone being turned off by their appearance, voice, or potentially even name.
I realize that none of that looks like solutions, beyond "measure and apply feedback," but maybe something in there will spur an improved idea from someone smarter who has the authority to make an impact. Because I agree, this needed to be fixed decades ago...
Unfortunately, there are very few real positive actions now, it is rather rare than a rule, that's why I can say from myself that it looks very unusual now and one should appreciate at least the elementary manifestations of these positive actions. But now women at work are still being discriminated against and according to statistics they work less than men and their salaries are lower, you can read this essay and immediately understand what I'm talking about, it is described in great detail. So far, unfortunately, people have not yet understood the value of what they have and discrimination continues to this day, we are waiting for positive action).
Sorry about the confusion, there. I brought up affirmative action, because the phrase "affirmative action" tells us how this needs to be fixed: We need to take definite steps that we can analyze and verify are actually fair, feeding any "errors" back to improve the process.
People and companies don't take those actions, so things don't improve, and privileged people who don't really care can strike their beards and wonder aloud why women and minorities just aren't showing up.
I didn't want to imply that we solved the problem and, again, apologize for that.
The fact we're calling attention to colors of skin is really the ultimate issue we're facing. This post is not helping. We should be discussing individuals and their capabilities and not attributes of people.
I don't care you're yellow, gray, purple etc. I care about individuals and what they do.
End the group think and end racism, thanks
Please direct your comments to those people who are actively racist (yes - they do exist); rather than those who are pointing out the fallacy of your argument.
Consider the possibility that societal influences will affect the characteristics (and capabilities) of an individual. Then consider that societal influences are (in many countries) stacked largely in favour of their white population.
the irony is that you and yours that believe in this identity politics are actively using discrimination on a daily basis based on people's attributes such as color. This will never end because in your eyes this is what is the make up of groups. It's a never ending cycle to "fix" issues.
The issues stem from societal problems such as education, safety and jobs. The issue is not about a color on someone's skin. You want to fix racism, you want to fix "inequality", fix societal issues like this.
There's no quick fix that your identity politics seems to think to provide, it will only make thinks worse and the sooner people realize this the better off we'll all be.
Judging people by its cover has never been a good idea, why start now
As I already said: direct your facile and redundant argument to the racists who already do judge and group people by their colour. This isn't a chicken or egg argument. "Identity politics" wouldn't need to exist if racism didn't exist. End of story.
However I don't disagree that addressing societal inequality across the board is a sensible way forward. I just don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging that these issues dis-proportionally affect Black people. Nor do I think it wrong to try and make reparations for past injustices that continue to have an impact to this day.
they're hardly redundant, it's the irony that exactly your line of thinking is promoting the segregation of people by their attributes. We've seen in the past what that can result in, and it's not pretty.
This ideology is oppressing freedom of speech, curbing speech, demanding that my skin color is relevant and other attributes like my sex. It's a disturbing ideology that I can never agree with.
Solving issues does not begin with labelling people, as said history is full of answers this is clearly the wrong road to travel.
Sadly your reply is still lingering in my notifications panel; so I figured I might as well send you a response.
You are an utter hypocrite and the complete embodiment of 'white privilege'. Whilst you complain about threats to your freedom of speech, people are suffering far worse consequences (including death) because of the colour of their skin. You say identity politics is a "disturbing ideology" and I agree it has that potential; because what is racism if not the most negative form of identity politics? Yet you have failed to acknowledge that and instead focus your negativity on a positive movement that is simply asking for equality. You come across as either a racist arguing to protect your privileged position; or at best a deluded idealist totally detached from the realities of everyday life. Sadly the former seems far more likely.
Of course you apply the racist card again, which again proves my point. You think everyone discriminates and you'll make it a point to separate people based on the color of their skin ("white privilege") or whatever else suits your purpose, because its ingrained in your thinking and perception of the world.
You believe you fight against racism, but you apply discrimination to suit whatever agenda you have. How's that for hypocrisy.
Nonsense. White people have established for themselves a very comfortable position in the world - largely based on a history of exploiting people of colour - and they use the power that comes with that privileged position to exclude access to others. I'm not discriminating against white people by making that point (I am also white European by the way); I'm simply acknowledging a historical fact: you and I have both benefited from the wrongs our ancestors committed and the wrongs our governments continue to commit to this day.
The naive idea that in time things will sort themselves out if we educate people etc. is ridiculous. Did the Suffragettes sit idly by and leave it to the men in power to realise they were at fault and fix the system? Did Black South Africans accept their lot and wait for some form of sanity to return to their country? No. They protested; and in doing so - following your twisted logic - 'discriminated' against those who were oppressing them; and rightly so.
Black Americans have been fighting for equality from the time our ancestors dragged them to that country as slaves. The idea that as whites we have nothing to answer for is absurd; and playing the discrimination card in defence of our position is utter hypocrisy.
I expected you would react this way, and you would use the other nonsense argument that this group is responsible for the fate of another group. History is a bit more complicated than that, read a book.
What this is really about is personal responsibility and this thinking of yours takes that away and says the "white man" is evil and needs to be punished. It's absurd in every way.
But you go ahead and punish yourself, I'm not participating in this ridiculous notion.
How is it nonsense to acknowledge what white Europeans have done in the past? Of course history is complicated; but that's precisely the point: events from hundreds - even thousands - of years ago still have repercussions today: they influence our customs; behaviour and language. But you seem to be arguing that it's wrong to suggest that we have benefited as a result of actions in the past that any reasonable person today would find morally repugnant?
The point on personal responsibility is totally lost on me. Who said anything about punishment; or white men being evil? No-one is trying to find you personally responsible for the actions of your long-dead countrymen; and I'm certainly not punishing myself. I'm simply acknowledging that I have (indirectly) benefited from my country's dark history and that I am willing to take some action to redress the imbalance that has caused.
Of course not; because it serves you very well to believe you got where you are through merit alone and that your county's history has no bearing on that; which brings us right back to you being the embodiment of white privilege. Congratulations. Enjoy your privileged life...
Mate, read a book. Every skin color under the sun have committed injustices against every other skin color. it is irrelevant, but only relevant in your religion of identity politics.
I can't begin to change your mind because you follow a religious belief that is absurd, good luck.
Another thing, you my find certain groups prosper because of a set of principles they have operated from have resulted in better societies. Captalism and the free markets have created more wealth and prosperity than any other system and for good reason. That you choose to blame the "white man" for its prospertiy only because of exploitation shows how vile your religion is and takes away all the positivity that has been created in western society.
As said, good luck.
Any time someone pulls out the "I don't see color" or the "I don't care if someone is black, white, or purple" cliches, it's a clear sign that you're wasting your breath if you try to engage with them. In their candy-coated universe, the magical power of their own enlightenment is enough to make any talk of racism absurd.
I know; but sometimes I think it's worth a try...
TBH I'm finding it pretty depressing seeing some of the responses you're getting; so think I'll be stepping away from the toxic responses for now.
But thanks for the article. I thought it was very well put.
Back to square one, if we don't invest in kids' exposure to tech, they'll never have a chance to compete on quote-unquote ability.
It's laughable to see people claim that they don't see color.
Goes to show how indoctrinated your thinking is, I see people have a color but I don't care about it.
You want to do something to stop the segregation based on attributes? Change your behavior and change your attitude to view people for who they are.
Your way of identity politics is the road to failure, it is with good intention perhaps, but it won't have the effect you desire.
But it's also unrealistic to claim we aren't subject to cultural biases.
We're all subjected to all kinds of biases, but applying discrimination on a daily basis because you need to "fix" a problem has never worked.
As said in my other reply, fix society by tackling its root issues of education, jobs, and safety. It's a long road, but discrimination on people's attributes has never worked.
This is a very charged topic, so I don't expect to change anyone's opinion. Thanks for engaging.
And yeah, to your point, I think there's a lot of evidence for tackling the economics of the problem in order to make some positive changes.
Trigger warning:(well-meaning non-hostile) criticism incoming. I have some background in philosophy (just a few years academically, more of personal interest) and countless of years participating in skeptics forums. This is to say, I am by nature exploratory thinker and am more suspicious of silent agreement than vocal disagreement.A brief of issues relevant to this topic I fundamentally disagree with
Specifically about your points:
From your own post, this (at least as far as you mention specific reasons for the disparity) boils down to economic welfare and security, which grants earlier access to trade tools. This is by definition not race related, it may just happen to be that one race is economically worse off in one particular country while it might be the opposite in another. Maybe the post should be then titled the economic disparity of black Americans? Because this has zero to do with coding as a trade, this is not unique to coding.
Your post however seems to insinuate global coding community or coding as a profession is somehow at fault - at least insofar as they should actively seek a solution and maybe feel bad for the distribution of people in their profession based on skin color. In addition, as you say, where you come from is based on a anecdotal, limited experience. By limited experience I mean statistically speaking - you can never personally experience enough to grasp the state of global coding community as a whole. That needs other methodologies: polls, surveys etc. A lot of us are silent, because we prefer to not elevate certain political issues over others. Each of us may experience different turmoil and persecution in our respective countries.
On top of that, your experience is region-specific, that is to say, purely Americacentric. I assure you, there are plenty of poor white Estonians that did not have the same resources as I did to get into computers and eventually coding. We have Russian Estonians, who might have linguistic disadvantage in getting a job. Again, this stuff is very country specific.
This characterization may be more or less correct, though I doubt many devs think they have acquired much (or all) the knowledge without any help from teachers, peers etc; or that their employment is purely because of their skill and not at least partly because of networking, social circle and pure luck.
But the real point is that the following "therefore" is such a non-sequitor, that this appears to be a strawman of your average dev's worldview, and indeed a rather myopic one.
Things not eliminating the possibility of racial discrimination somewhere in the hiring process:
I speculate, if this is based on any real world anecdotal conversations, they may be expecting you to provide sufficient evidence to demonstrate actual discrimination in the HR. Perhaps your average dev is not really interested when the discussion evolves into the issues of race based economic disparity and how to solve it. To be fair, that is quite far from issues of coding.
Let's give them some benefit of doubt. Maybe at least some of them have thought about it more thoroughly:
The problem
First, we need to identify the problem. The problem you have identified is disparity in numerical representation of a social group in a given trade. You need to explain why this is a problem to being with, as this is not actually apparent: I can give you plenty of examples of jobs where massive numerical disparity relating to social groups exists and society is fine with it. The thing is, disparity in and of itself does not necessitate discrimination.
The problem is not whiteness of coding. I'm sorry, but this is the definition of race-baiting. People's color of skin should never be the problem! .
The problem ought to be racial discrimination. So, we need to identify first where it happens, and then how it happens. Numerical disparity doesn't necessarily mean there's any discrimination going on within your company, or even within or profession.
The fact that you don’t think wealth inequality or economic welfare leads back to racism is baffling. The primary reason why wealth inequality exists as it does today (not just in America) leads back to colonialism which was inherently based on castes systems and “the upper class” vs “the conquered class” and if you don’t think this carries on till this day then you’ve never heard of 40 acres and a mule. In modern times people of WASP culture hold more wealth because back in the day their grandpappies made sure any wealth generated by enslaved people weren’t passed down to them or their generations to come. The same can be seen in many other countries where generations that come from the enslaved class didn’t get reparations or anything to make up for the fact that the dominant colonial class stole their resources and wealth. Wealth today as you can see can mean the difference between having access to certain privileges or not. Second because other “white” people like Russians or poor Estonians also get disadvantaged proves nothing against this article. He clearly stated the dominant culture they are compared to when assigning privilege isn’t white as a skin color or culture it’s W.A.S.P white Anglo-Saxon Protestant straight male. By definition these other white peoples you mentioned aren’t Anglo-Saxon. Proximity to this dominant class is what determines privileges granted. So yes these other people if they aren’t Anglo Saxon or straight or etc they get disadvantaged in one way but they still benefit from meeting at least one standard: “white”. So yes all of these problems do boil down back to racism. Wether it be wealth inequality, access to resources, etc etc the point is wealth goes far and generates more wealth and it isn’t just by chance that a certain people tend to hold more wealth it goes back to colonizing and enslavement. Typically the people of enslaved class were those of color and in other countries there were more intricate caste systems that will create a disparity but for the majority of the world the WASP culture is the dominant culture.
Racism has nothing to do with wealth inequality for like 90% of the world and to assert that is just painfully Americentric navel-gazing. But go ahead, you do you.
You do realize it was Europeans who colonized America and pretty much tried to do the same for the rest of the world right. American racism originated in it's eastern colonizers so yeah keep on proving you know nothing about history.
The origin of American racism was not being discussed. What was being discussed is racism being the cause of wealth inequality, which for majority of world is obviously not so. Hence the painfully Amercentric take. Many racially uniform countries/cultures with major wealth inequalities. I don't understand the need for this virtue signal. It simultanously is inaccurate and exposes lack of empathy for marginalization other than being caused by racism.
I don't know reading this response just feels like a lot of splitting hairs for the sake of playing devil's advocate reads like an effort to side step any critical engagement with the reality of racial disparity...even a bit defensive? Your response in some ways affirm some of the mechanisms of racism that Adam writes about. The pervasiveness of that system is dependent on seemingly innocent behavior that when closely examined point to its reification and reproduction.
"The problem is not whiteness of coding. I'm sorry, but this is the definition of race-baiting."
Race-baiting implies an act meant to deliberately provoke an angry reaction or negative response in someone else, which what your provided Cambridge.org definition clarifies. Clearly the goal of the post was an earnest attempt at uncovering racial disparities in programming, as experienced by this developer. The goal here is not to provoke anger. Yet, your response, among others, is to claim that the mere mention of racial disparities is "race-baiting".
If by reading the post, the effect has been to generate anger in the reader, the issue is with the reader and not the post.
" Clearly the goal of the post was an earnest attempt at uncovering racial disparities in programming, as experienced by this developer."
I am not questioning the motivations of the OP, I'm sure they are not malevolent and it indeed reads as an earnest attept to examine the problem. This is why I even wrote my original response. It's a discussion worth having, hear all the sides.
"Yet, your response, among others, is to claim that the mere mention of racial disparities is "race-baiting"."
This is evidently not so. The mere mention of racial disparities itself amounts to little, nothing controversial in stating facts. Why people may see some part of it as race-baiting is perhaps defining the problem to be "Whiteness" (to be understood as White Culture and/or People). If you cannot see how this is racially provoking, try to reverse the races. You couldn't even publish an article like that on this platform.
"If by reading the post, the effect has been to generate anger in the reader, the issue is with the reader and not the post."
I don't think OP's post, in toto, is ragebait, nor in any substantial way race-baity, precisely because it seems earnest. Furthermore, it doesn't actually seem to enrage anyone. I think the accurate description is it's "starting a conversation". So I think you may be reading more into the responses than what's there.
Your ability to strawman is excellent.
Care to elaborate, or is this just a projection?
There are some insightful observations and ideas being made in this post, as well as the rest of the series. When you're done with your faux-outrage™, I hope you will consider sharing something constructive. It's an important topic.
If you don't find my comment to the original post insightful or constructive, that's okay. What you cannot do is call it faux-outrage. It's neither an outrage, nor faux. In fact, your responses to me have mischaracterized my position, which I gladly, politely and constructively corrected. It's okay to misunderstand, that's why we're having a discussion in the first place.
Thank you. I hadn't wanted to bother responding to this comment (i.e., don't feed the trolls). But you've done a wonderful job of covering it. Greatly appreciated.
"I hadn't wanted to bother responding to this comment (i.e., don't feed the trolls)."
Why the hostility?
If you take that as "hostility", then there's nothing more to explain.
Calling someone a troll without any provocation is ill-willed in my book, I suspect there were nothing to explain regardless. All the best.
Such a great response. Thanks for taking the time to write this.
Adam specifically addressed this early on in his post.
You're right, of course, but what I think's being discussed is the disparity between the ratio of groups in the population and the ratio of groups in tech (specifically programming). That's a big difference, and while it's not absolute, it's a red flag that something does need to be fixed - or at least scrutinised.
Why?
I don't know. I guess if your M&Ms bags kept turning out to be full of 95% blue ones you might be suspicious that someone, somewhere was affecting the supply chain. It could be random, but it might also mean things aren't given equal distribution further back.
In such a situation, I would probably suspect a bug in the production line, rather than a systemic fault targeting me personally.
Such a bug only gets fixed if I really love some other colour of M&Ms enough to complain about it, but all the while, I have to accept that the bug is probably affecting other people, in other ways (you might only get yellow ones, etc).
But perhaps that's just my "M&M privilege", choosing to see it as a hiccup, rather than a targeted campaign.
If dev & design are about creating solutions, the lack of representation of marginalized communities means that the problems of these communities face are not addressed. It means that the scope of identifying problems and ideating their solutions will always fall short of being truly effective.
I can't speak for everyone, but dev & design rarely create any solution in isolation. In our case, there's BA and stakeholder reviews (fun fact: stakeholders never know what they want until they see it, and then they want something different).
Customers identify problems (mostly) and BA identify improvements. The acceptance criteria is set in stone. To put it in simple terms, if BA want to carry some amount of rocks from A to B, I can give them a pickaxe or explosives, and a horse or a truck. Stakeholders will tell you they want a truck and explosives, until they start blowing themselves up or having to pay repair bills on the truck (and give them a horse, they won't like paying a vet).
When the whole organisation is defining the desired outcome (the acceptance criteria), it really doesn't matter how many minorities are in your dev team. What matters, is how many are in your organisation and ultimately, how many are in your customer base (happy customers = successful business).
My problem is that minorities don't show up to interview, they don't send their resume. Well, they do, but in minorities - I think I interviewed one woman over the last 18 months.
If people aren't approaching me, when I have a job opening, I can't legally go to a local minority group hang out with "Hey, anyone want a job?" - because I'd also be discriminating some other group that way.
Right. This mirrors what I wrote in the article - that it's unusual for me to receive even 5% minority applicants. That's why I think the issue is so complex - because it's not nearly so simple as pointing at any given employer or industry and saying, "You just need to hire more minorities!"
Lots of people will tell you that though, but if you look at the people saying it, it's people that don't have the job roles you & I do (and therefore haven't, for a variety of reasons, walked a mile in our shoes).
There's some that say the problem is with the education system - but even there, how can you teach someone if they don't apply to the course, regardless of the reasons why that individual doesn't apply?
100% this!
Thanks for taking the time to elaborate 👍