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Do you consider the term "blacklist" a "racist" term? If yes, what is the alternative?
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Latest comments (51)
No, I don't think that it's a racist term. But maybe that's because it's what I grew up with and so it's just another word to me plus I don't read meaning into a lot of things.
Sometimes words are just words.
I think it's a really difficult topic.... everyone has their own point of view.
I found this explanation about the etymology of the work black-list. Quite interesting.
I never liked the term Blacklist/Whitelist, as it does not reflect exactly what it is or what it does, you must know the context and meaning beforehand. I would think something like Allowlist/Denylist, as said in other comments would explain way better what they are and do.
I think it is important to revise these kinds of terms and words, but they should not blur the real issues that are happening out there to real people. I think we could focus our efforts on trying to educate our fellows, friends and family about inclusion, equality and most importantly respect to others humans... instead of trying to change words... for me this is the biggest issue nowadays, education focuses too little on these topics... social media fuels these behaviours, as well as some Leaders out there.
I'm sad this "revolution" probably will fade away in a certain amount of time, as it has happened in the past :( I'm even sadder that we still need to talk about this shit, it makes me feel sick...
PD: I just wanted to say, that posting this has been quite weird, I can't even post this without thinking about how people might react if it's going to offend someone, if they will take it out of context, etc... And I imagine I'm not the only one that has felt this. It's sad :(
Considering the number of black people who are near the breadline, and struggling to get their kids educated it seems pretty depressing that these comparatively rich highly educated folks have chosen this as their way to help. They could literally do anything else and have more impact. All they care about is the appearance of virtue, its entirely self centred.
This is like walking past a starving homeless person and then telling someone that calling them a hobo is discrimination. You should have stopped and given them at minimum a sandwich.
I just saw this on another site, but relating to the same issues...
This was much easier when the neutral term was "colored" rather than "black".
I’ve gotta say, the comments here are incredibly disappointing, Dev community. I really thought this community was better than this.
If you're relying on "But it's tradition!" to convince me that something isn't racist, then you don't have a good argument.
Terms matter. Words matter. Meanings and connotations become internalized.
Black kids are growing up in a world where scary things come from "The Black Lagoon" or "The Black Forest." It's a lazy trope to put "Black" in front of a place or thing to make it sound scarier. You don't want to be the "Black Sheep" or buy things on the "Black Market." Having taught kids for 5 years, I can tell you they pick up on these things.
To people fighting to keep terms like Master/Slave and Blacklist/Whitelist, what do you have to gain? It's baffling.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6...
Passing all of these off as 'lazy tropes' is lazy in itself, and does a disservice to the kids. Better to equip them with the tools to recognise context and research the origins of different uses of the word 'black' and allow them to determine whether racism was intended. Without these critical thinking tools, they will merely attack or reject perfectly innocent uses of words because they have been taken wildly out of context - leading them to a path of conflict rather than understanding.
There is a base human fear of the dark. This is natural. I can't speak to the exact motivations of the original coiners of "The Black Lagoon" or "The Black Forest" but tapping into a basic human fear of the dark seems a perfectly valid and effective literary device to instil fear in your audience - especially in a filmed entertainment where the viewers may not desire any level of verbal sophistication.
As for 'Black Sheep' and 'Black Market' - again, to my knowledge, there is nothing racist in the etymology of these terms. 'Black Sheep' is used to denote something unusual within a group of similar things - black sheep are unusual in a herd that is made up of predominantly uniform white sheep. There's no racism or prejudice there - unless you choose to insert it. Some information on the etymology of 'Black Market' can be found here - again, there is no racism behind it unless you choose to insert it.
Context is everything
"Terms matter. Words matter. Meanings and connotations become internalized."
Well said, Alex!
And I very much agree. I don't see why folks feel the need to push back against using more inclusive language.
If you're relying on use of the words "white" and "black" to convince me that something is racist, then you don't have a good argument either.
If you try your hardest to find racism in every little nook and cranny, you're always going to find it because that's what you want to see. The real inequalities and mistreatment of people caused by actual racism are not well served by the policing of language that has, at best, a vague interpretation as being racist.
Energies would be better spent elsewhere - police reform, cultural understanding, better education about history, stronger laws against discrimination etc.
Not everything is about America.
light = life = white = good
darkness = death = black = bad
This is an age-old concept used in many aspects in life. Only racists apply this to skin color.
Master/Slave is a technical term, that exactly describes, what is going on, so I don't think, it makes much sense to replace those terms with something kind of similar.
Yes, the origin of these terms is slavery, which is a bad thing. But being enslaved is not a "privilege" of black people. All kinds of people have been enslaved all over the world in history.
When I see these discussions, 1984's Newspeak comes to my mind every time. Abolishing specific terms only because some people are using them in a bad way won't make the world better.
Racist will discriminate people, no matter what words they have available.
Why do we even call people of African/Nigerian descent black? they are brown. It's so strange. I would be all for calling them brown instead of black and leaving these other words whose origins had nothing to do with Africans alone. Do most people even know the Etymology of the word? I think some people hear a word and assume the worst. What does that tell you about those people and what they think anyway? If we are trying to treat everyone equally, (as humans, as people) why do so many people perseverate about these useless things?
Here is the Etymology:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/866ynp/what_are_the_origins_of_the_words_blacklist_and/dw3svkw?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
Why do you feel like it describes "exactly" what is going on?
I would think because you have the knowledge of what slaves and masters were and are. If you remove the meaning of what a slave is, it does not describe it in any way.
I totally agree here. The issue must be eradicated from the root, not just add a cover on top.
If you remove the meaning of any word, it does not describe what it had before ;-)
The primary definition of a master/slave relationship - at least for me - is, that the slave has to do exactly what the master commands, and nothing else. IMO this describes exactly the behaviour for almost all topics, that I can think of, where these terms are used.
Words always have meanings, that's why we use them.
We shouldn't let racists force us to restrict our language, just because a non-racist word that is used in many different contexts, could be racist in one specific usage.
I agree with this, although the word slave has really bad connotations, not just racist but un-ethical IMO.
That being said, I have never come across the word Slave being used anywhere in this context, apart from some technical papers from 10y ago or some old docs.
I see more the parent->child naming, or primary/secondary, or process/subprocess...
I totally agree.
Those terms are used in all kinds of context, like e. g. software, relays, lighting fixtures, busses, BDSM, ...
In some of these contexts it's easy to replace them with other and maybe better fitting terms.
But things are totally different for whitelist/blacklist: Here the origin is not unethical, so i don't see any reason to replace them.
Even if these words aren't necessarily racist, what's wrong with getting rid of what sounds like exclusionary language? It's a relatively minor change compared to what we're used to in the developing world.
Many things:
I wrote more about these and other issues in 8 problems with replacing "master" in Git.
Those words by themselves are not racist, it is always the context that makes the meaning. If you think they are exclusionary, it's only in your mind. I usually don't think of racism if I hear those words, but I do recognize some people do. Those words are not exclusionary or racist because they exist, but rather how they are used.
How far do you want to go? Should we really check any context where the words black or white are used for the potential of a racist interpretation? Maybe abolishing the words black and white on the whole would help? I don't see those changes solving any real problems.
Precisely. I really do understand where people are coming from with this, but the efforts - noble as they may be - seem misplaced. The real problems are much bigger, and to be honest - very hard to solve, or even begin to solve. Creating racist problems where they don't exist in such a way as to allow a simple solution may make people feel good that they are solving 'something' or doing their part, but ultimately does nothing to stop racist people being racist, or tackle any of the very real injustices people face. Inserting accusations of racism everywhere at the drop of a hat dilutes the real issues and potentially creates more division where there need not be any.
Sigh just dont.
Oh but we SHALL! 😱 We really will.
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