I’m a Software Engineer at Microsoft. I work on an incubation team that works to build experiences using software and hardware prototypes to define...
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Hi Julie! 👋 Fellow liberal arts grad here 😊
I'm curious to know if there has been one (or many!) thing from your liberal arts degree that has helped you immensely in your role at Microsoft/in STEM in general? Like you, I feel that my liberal arts degree has make me uniquely qualified for certain things in my job, and allows me to bring something special to the table. Is there anything you can point to in your experiences that are in the similar vein?
Hello!
I WRITE SO MUCH. I write emails, I will soon be writing patents, I write documents, I write code reviews. The amount of writing I do, lends itself to a Liberal Arts degree, because I know how to write. I sent an email to someone very high up once at Microsoft, and my manager freaked out. He saw the email and was stunned at how eloquent it was, I was not sure if I was supposed to be offended or not.
I don't think it is noticed to much now, but I think in the future of my career, my ability to write will be a huge strength.
Hey Jag!
My college allowed me to make my own major, basically what I had to do was:
1) Write up a long paper about why my major was important and why one major would not fulfill what I wanted to learn
2) Show research of other colleges with HCI programs and then show how I could supplement it
3) Find my courses for the rest of the three years of college and list why each one would apply to my major.
4) Find a professor in each department to be an advisor
Then after all of that, I submitted it and it had to be reviewed by some people. It was great, and definitely not something for everyone.
When & how did you realize that's what you wanted to do?
They wouldn't let me major in Cognitive Science and double in Computer Science, so I proved them wrong. :)
But to be honest, I still don't know what I want to do. I just do things that I think are interesting and sound exciting to me.
Hi Julie! Thanks for answering questions with us today! I also have a liberal arts degree and am wondering since you made your own major, what are some ways that you've explained to companies, perhaps at an interview, the benefit of having a liberal arts degree and how that sets you apart?
Hi!
This is one of my favorite things to talk about.
I believe that my education gives me an openness to learn, and more experiences. I actually wrote about this....
Here is the quote from the article: (medium.com/@jhubs/the-other-divers...)
"I am a technical individual with a foundation in the liberal arts and I am proud of that. To build successful products, you need diverse teams, but if your entire team is made up of graduates from X’s computer science program, how diverse is your team actually? They all went through the same classes, and were taught to think the same when it comes to solving problems. Is that really a diverse team?"
What courses did you self-assign for your major?! Which ones prepared you to be an engineer?
I also made my own major...but it's not nearly as cool sounding as Human Computer Interaction.
I had to choose all of my classes actually!
The ones that prepared me most to be an engineer I actually took in Scotland when I studied abroad. There I took a course about the Internet which was like 2 courses put together, it was half front-end and half back-end.
But to be honest, I don't think any one class prepared me to be an engineer. I think having experiences with internships helped more. I don't think any college course has a class where if you screw up, you can make a company lose millions of dollars.
what kind of internships did you have?
Two software engineering internships. I was one of two "non-mainstream" college students accepted.
Any fun nuggets from those two courses about "the Internet" ? Was it a technical course or more historical?
I recently read The Victorian Internet which is about the advent of the telegraph. And Ben has recommended Where Wizards Stay Up Late: The Origins of the Internet as a similar book on the origins of the internet.
Just curious if you encountered anything in those courses that might be fun/surprising to the rest of us.
It was technical. I did take a super interesting course in college about the theory of computing. An ex buddhist monk taught it. There was a lot of questions about life that came up.
I also want to say that the courses that I think taught me the most were the ones that had nothing to do with Engineering. I took some strange classes, I took Jazz Band every semester (I played the saxophone), and I took English classes. I think that is what makes liberal arts so cool.
Every college has the same Intro to CS class,for the most part, the difference between Liberal Arts and other colleges is I have a wider swath of knowledge, and those at other schools have a much more focused band of knowledge. I think Liberal Arts works for people who know what interests them, and they want the best way to apply it. Once again, I am not discrediting technical degrees. I think if you know what you want to study and you know your life plan, go that way.
As a former humanities major, this is a great story. How was the transition from liberal arts to CS? Did the shift in thinking take long or was it something you just got right away?
Hi!
I actually took CS courses in college. I think how it was taught made the transition easier. I can't tell you how to reverse a binary tree, but I can read just about any computer program that is put in front of me.
So to answer, the transition was easy and yet hard. Easy, because anything can be put in a liberal arts perspective; Hard, because I don't have quite the same amount of technical gritty knowledge.
(I really hope I answered your question)
You did! That's pretty great. Thank you.
When did you come up with "Human Computer Interaction"? Was it heading into university or during? Were you already sort of on that path before making it explicit or was this a path you envisioned ahead of time?
It was while I was at my college. I wanted to study Cognitive Science, but to study that, I had to create an interdisciplinary major. I decided to take a CS class my freshman year because I thought about a double major. I found out that you could not double major with an interdisciplinary, so I had to come up with a way to combine everything.
At first I thought I was going to do Artificial Intelligence as my major, but I couldn't find enough courses, so I went with HCI.
What does that "Human Computer Interaction" comprise of? Who is chiefly in charge of thinking about these sorts of concerns in an engineering team?
I like to think that Human Computer Interaction is taking into account the fact that our products are being used by other people. I feel that it is the coding of a great user experience that is inclusive.
I wish that someone was in charge of this on an engineering team. I think it usually falls to a Project Manager. I wish that more engineers thought about it, but it doesn't always happen.
I recall reading a pretty interesting anecdote about how Google's project at Stanford, which arguably was one of the most important engineering projects in the history the world, was kind of scoffed at because it was "soft computing", e.g. the part where the human interacts with the machine. It seems like their peers thought that anything that the humans touched with was for non-hardcore engineers to work on.
I think the opinion has shifted away from this extreme a bit. Anyway, do you have any thoughts on this anecdote or have you experienced this sort of thing?
It's funny you say this. I looked at going to a big tech school, and Computer Science was their "softest" major.
I think some companies are working on making more inclusive and diverse work forces which helps a lot. When an engineer makes a product they make it so that it works for them (left or right handed, etc.). Having a more diverse workplace gives more eyes on a product from different backgrounds.
HCI seems like a very design-centric degree, in addition to the obvious tech and science challenges. Do you ever design things in your day-to-day, or on side projects? What are your go-to tools?
Hey Cassidy! We should hang out soon!
I really don't do side projects, because I feel like my daily job is just making things.
Tools that I love include: Sketch, atom.io (which you told me about), and Pixelmator.
I hope that in the new year I can scratch that creative muscle again.
We should! I'm starting to actually have free time again, ha!
I'll be curious to see the things you make!
Wooo!
And me too! Maybe we will make something together. I have never been good at making stuff on my own, I like a collaborative effort.
Hi Julie! As a non CS degree major, I can relate with your story (aviation here). What are some the things you do to network with other developers/like minded people?
Twitter. I am addicted to Twitter. I just started following people who I thought were interesting, and replying to people, and I found friends.
Exactly what I did. Amazing the gems you can find that way.
Awesome. I'm just getting into Twitter now, I wish I knew about these people before, I got some serious role models now! :)
Gonna follow you on twitter too :D
I post a lot of ridiculous non relevant things. So be prepared
I myself have a BFA in Graphic Design, and love to discuss the career path I've taken. What tips can you offer other non-CS degree folks about the road that lies ahead?
Wow cool Kelly. I'm curious: your work is pretty far from the "graphics" part of software, even though there is plenty of work to be done in that area. How did that journey take place? Do you still make visual art, with computers/software or otherwise?
I wish I did - I once made some really cool hyper-realistic images that I have no idea where they went now :(
I always wanted to not just do design, but front-end web development. It then turned into full on development roles.
If I get the chance to make some graphics, I jump on it still ;)
You are going to get rejected a lot. It sucks. But, know that it is the company not realizing your potential. Keep trying, keep applying, look at startups, look anywhere. Just keep making stuff and try to find a way in with your degree.
Graphic Design is used all the time! Maybe you know Unity really well... that is a big thing right now with AR/VR. Take advantage of those skills you have and make them flashy. Just spin them to appeal.
what would be your advice to other liberal arts grads who want to follow your path?
Know that a lot of companies will reject you, and that is on them.
Network your ass off, because connections make finding jobs a lot easier.
Always ask questions.
This is a great advice. Thank you!
Absolutely. The hardest part is just staying positive through it all. Just know that there are people out there who are willing to take a chance on you.
What sort of take-aways from each rotational experience influenced your ultimate decisions on your career path?
My first rotation was in IT and was very technical. I enjoyed the work, but I realized security was not for me. My second rotation was completely nontechnical. I thought trying both sides would help me. Also, each role I had help me expand my network and find things that I was interested in. I found that from the two, although the nontechnical role was really cool, I missed coding. The second role also showed me that I had an area of interest, I just needed to find the technical side to it.
I am a networking fiend, so any chance I get to do that is a win for me.
I just want to share that I also do not drink coffee.
I only drink coffee that doesn't taste like coffee. So like mochas and ridiculously sweet Starbucks drinks. It is very hard living in Seattle and not being a coffee drinker. There are a lot of judgy looks.
grande java chip frappcuino - 2 pumps extra ice light whip with skim milk plz
..same 😅
Do you ever get to work with @thelarkinn ??
Sadly, no. :(
NOT YET AT LEAST BUT WE SHPULD JUST HANG! And then find cool ideas to collaborate on!
Hello Julie, thanks for doing this AMA! As a fellow non-CS-degreed software engineer (BFA in Illustration, lol), I have some questions for you about culture and learning.
Before I got into tech, I was working in some decidedly different fields (local government, graphic design, etc), and the culture shock for me coming into a startup was pretty notable. What did you do before you came to Microsoft? Is the tech business culture something that you were immersed in before starting your job, or was it new to you?
Another question I have - does the impostor syndrome ever really go away? :)
Thanks again for your time! This is awesome :D
Hi Anna!
I was actually in college! I graduated and got a job at Microsoft. I had some idea about the tech culture, I had two internships previously at Intel, and my dad worked at Microsoft over 20 years ago (no nepotism). I do think that Microsoft made it easy and was very welcoming, thus making the shock of culture change easier.
Impostor Syndrome never goes away! I wish! Especially with a Liberal Arts degree, it always creeps up. Some days are better than others, but I think knowing that it is okay to be an impostor, keeps me going. What I mean by that is, I bring a perspective that none of my teammates have, and that is why I am here. I am technically able, but I also have a different view.
It is awesome! It took about 4 months during the second half of my sophomore year.
I wish! My degree just says B.A. in Individualized Interdisciplinary Major.
So I guess I can name it anything.
If you're allowed to — can you share the structure of the project teams within the incubation teams?
Do the project owners have any "equity" tied to the success of their project (maybe in the form of a performance bonus or "internal sale")? Do they have their own balance sheet? And access to shared resources?
I used to work at a startup incubator, so I'm always interested in understanding how these teams are organized and compensated within larger companies.
I can't really answer this. But it is sort of like a start up mixed with a hackathon.
How big is the incubation team?
I totally missed this question!
I would say there are currently about 12 engineers and like 10 designers. We also have a few PMs mixed in.
Your degree and abilities are really well-rounded. Do you get to use that well-roundedness often in your work, do you ever wish you could more? What would you change about software engineering, if you could?
I feel like with my current team I absolutely get that chance. If I could change anything about software engineering it would be interactions with users. I think the biggest thing software engineering is missing is empathy. We in the tech community live in a very different world than everyone else, and I think that sometimes gets forgotten.
I totally agree. I actually made a similar point in a different thread awhile back discussing how to improve communication between software engineers and their business-minded colleagues, though it is definitely just as applicable to interactions with users.
Hey Julie! I just changed from a computer science major to a liberal studies major due to the fact I have my associates in computer information systems. I honestly don’t want to program and code I honestly want to work on computers but not the programming part could you help me? I want to work for some companies but not the programming part! I will be graduating in December! My friends aren’t happy with me changing my degree it was just that computer science was giving me so many breakdowns I couldn’t do it anymore!
The rotational program at Microsoft sounds cool and interesting! Would love to hear your thoughts/reflections of going through that program before becoming full time.
Do you find that it was really helpful/insightful to what you do now as a software engineer, or was it more of an exploratory track to see what sort of a position you wanted to eventually have?
So the rotation program was a full time role. I believe that it helped me find where my passion lie. I do think that the program is not for everyone, as I had to make it a lot more for myself. I also answered some of this here...
dev.to/juliehubs/im-a-liberal-arts...
What are the different challenges in incubating hardware v. software prototypes?
I would think that iterating is much slower with hardware? have modeling programs and/or 3-d printers helped narrow that gap? Would love to hear more about your experiences in building these new products.
As a fellow liberal arts grad (and English major, at that!), thanks for doing this AMA!
Hi!
So I only do software prototyping. The hardware prototypers are amazing. I wish I knew more about hardware.
I wish I had a better answer!
Hey awesome co-worker and fellow BA major!! What group do you roll up into at MS? (WDG - Web Platform (WPT) for me)
Also would you share what side projects you are working on in addition to what you are working on right now?
WDG Quad.
No side projects at the moments. And cool top secret stuff
What was your interviewing experience like at Microsoft? Are there any areas of study you would suggest emphasizing over others? Thanks!
My interview experience was pretty standard. I recommend checking out the many online resources and books on interviews, they will help. Areas to focus on is very dependent on role and who is interviewing you. When I interview, I look for thought process and passion most of all.
Thank you for the reply!
Hi Julie! Did you find that companies would try to place you in less technical roles because of your degree and communication abilities? If so, how did you handle it and stay technical?
Thankfully that has not happened, but if it did (and this is what I tell interns I mentor), I would put a technical spin on whatever I was working on. For example, in my last role as a User Researcher, they were doing a lot of labeling and data collection by hand, so I automated it with a script. This freed up researchers time to do stuff that was actually beneficial.
Any role whether you like it or not can be turned into something you enjoy. A girl I mentored didn't like her role, and wanted to do Data Science, so I told her to take what she was working on it and find a way to apply data science to it, and then make it. Obviously, this should not take up all of your time, but if you can do it and show it, are they really going to get mad?
I believe about 80% of the time it is better to ask for forgiveness.
I was wondering if any non-traditional courses for a software engineer have helped you as a developer?
Writing classes have definitely helped.
I also took an Organizational Behavior class that has helped with being in a workplace and what not.
Hey Julie, do you find that creating your own major helped you navigate through tech and the tech industry more easily than if you had followed a more traditional engineering or liberal arts degree?
Hey Andy!
I think creating my own major has made me resilient and makes me try unique stuff. I like to think that I have forged my own path here at Microsoft, and that making my own major helped me to realize that I don't need to take what is given to me as the only answer.