DEV Community

Cover image for JavaScript Frameworks and Metagaming
Ryan Carniato for This is Learning

Posted on

JavaScript Frameworks and Metagaming

Last week we released SolidJS 1.0. A JavaScript framework built on a foundation of ideas long ago dismissed, that accomplishes what some thought to be impossible. It was also a great personal achievement for me. Years of work realized and put on display.

And many of you know that. Since 2018 I made the deliberate choice to write about every detail of building a JavaScript framework. That's several dozen articles. In a lot of ways Solid was built in public. And just because we've hit 1.0 doesn't mean I have any intention to stop writing about my experiences and the things I learn in a highly introspective way.

It's no secret it's been hard to push a new JavaScript framework in such an overcrowded space. And 1.0 release has lead me to reflect further on this.

Metagaming in Games

Alt Text

I was an avid Magic the Gathering(collectable card game) player for several years. I mostly was a deck designer and play-tester. I was not the best technical player but what I did well was understand how the the whole field of possible decks would play against each other and how to take a given strategy and have it invalidate another approach. You can view this as a huge game of Rock Paper Scissors, except there were more than just 3 options.

What makes Magic interesting is that each match is a best out of 3 games and the person who goes first in a game generally has the advantage. But for game 1 that is random and something you can't control. In games 2 the loser goes first and should it go to game 3 the person who won the first game goes first again.

But what makes it really interesting is after game 1 either player can swap up to a quarter of the cards in their deck. And depending on each strategy one can change their approach to combat other strategies. This is incredibly deep when you consider the Princess Bride leveling game involved.

Through Magic I learned lessons on game theory. It's immensely deep. I've applied these sort of patterned thinking to a lot of problems I've faced since. Mark Rosewater, the Head Designer, gives one of my favorite talks on lessons learned when designing.

Framework Design

So what does this have to do with designing JavaScript Frameworks. Well, features-wise it is just as much about positioning as anything. How to balance a solution with no obvious weakness, yet offer the best offering on average. Sometimes you win in game 1 and there is nothing anyone can reasonably do to catch up. Other times you just need to be able draw it into the deciding game 3 where you will have the advantage.

While this seems sort of ruthless it has given me a framework for looking at balance. You don't get to change your fundamental identity (or say colors in Magic). Only certain tools can be available to you depending on the choices you make. All you can do is look at maximizing your strengths, and adjusting what is actually the deciding factor that is being fought over.

In Framework design this means sometimes the solution isn't to solve a known problem, but redefine it to avoid being trapped in solutions that don't suit the toolset. I had to do a lot of work to re-imagine things with VDOM-less JSX and how hydration and SSR could work in a granular reactive library. These technologies had been built on diffing Solid doesn't have.

Time and time again when I get stuck I don't concede. I go back to the drawing board and see if there is a way to re-imagine the problem.

Now picture this from another perspective. There is a reason Solid has such an unorthodox combination of elements, between mixing reactivity + JSX, doing some compilation but leaving some to the runtime, adopting uni-directional flow and immutable patterns with mutable internals. These things together edge out existing solutions in all the places they are weakest. Where the common knowledge is that we're reaching the limits of that abstraction.

I've had framework authors say things like, I'd love to do blank but it's not worth focusing on incremental improvements. And they are right. But what if the actual base configuration of a framework was setup to live in that space.

I'm not necessarily claiming Solid's tradeoffs are better. Obviously I have personal bias here and I think at least it provides a unique set of strengths. However, I'm finding that those decisions have bigger implications beyond the technical.

Social Metagaming

Social is not something I had as much experience in. I had MySpace to promote my band, and when Facebook came around, I was like "Pass. I don't need to do this again." I eventually signed up 3 years later. I didn't join Twitter for over a decade after that.

All I had were articles that I wrote and the output of my work. And you can probably see the flaw in my approach to framework design. That's not how to make friends and influence people.

Now framework authors live and breathe these problems. They've thought about the tradeoffs. They've chose their place and continue to work to understand these tradeoffs and implications of their decisions. Great video by Evan You on the topic:

This video establishes axis to compare our projects on and clearly states how moving the dial from left to right has different repercussions. It doesn't get super deep here, but decisions on one slide directly impact which options are open to you on the next.

Now this is the kind of simple message that influencers can carry and amplify out to the masses. It is always an oversimplification, but it serves the purpose. But what if what is in contention are the axis that we make these comparisons on? What if something bends the rules of the established model?

People are tired. The term JavaScript fatigue has been thrown around a lot. There is this perspective that JavaScript ecosystem as it matures should stabilize and look more like Ruby or Java on the backend. There should be established tools and practices that we make incremental improvements on.

The last thing any influencer wants is to push more uncertainty on their followers. People trust them because they bring clarity. Things fit into clear buckets. An idea that breaks down those walls has no place.

I don't expect people to drop what they are doing to change frameworks, but I've repeatedly found myself against an incredible barrier in the mind space. No one wanted JSX to be analyzable. No one wants to hear a well written VDOM scales better than most other solutions. Hell, no one wants to hear that React might as well be considered reactive when you consider how similar all frontend frameworks are. Or so I thought...

Reflecting on 1.0 release

I'm used to people seeing Solid and dismissing it. After all it is intentionally designed to be a sleeper. But what I saw was positivity from people around the React community. They saw the release, looked at it, and said "you know this is kind of incredible."

Isn't Solid some sort of React killer/replacement? Why would the React community welcome it and where others wouldn't?

Simple. It reaffirms their values. They don't see Solid as a competitor. Maybe just a re-imagining of their favorite framework. Despite the surface story playing up this React vs Solid narrative, there is no reality where they'd feel threatened by this.

From a cynic's perspective, Solid's existence gives them a gift. Here is the foil in those framework discussions. Touching on topics that compare with other frameworks on compilation, templates, reactivity, they can simply point at Solid as proof that one doesn't need to go through such lengths to get all the benefits.

One could even argue, if anything Solid re-enforces why you should be using React.

Where to go from here

Well not to disappoint anyone but React isn't going to take this path. Some critics have said, "React is an idea and the VDOM is just an implementation detail." Well, I have it on good authority it's an implementation detail they neither want to nor can escape at this point. This isn't a Vue/AlpineJS scenario where the larger player only has to flex.

We've had a lot of new exposure from places where we've struggled to get even a nod. They might not all have positive things to say but the acknowledgement is a step in the right direction. That's the important part.

In my experience, it is the fellow maintainers and contributors that have the greatest understanding and tolerance of different ideas. I'm still learning to work with influencers to not, "well, actually" them all the time. I have a body of work that may contradict what they've been telling people. And I am in a position where I have no choice really in the matter.

Solid has grown beyond what I singularly can focus on. So I'm going to keep working on the things that I can and have trust in people who continue to share my passion for this great little framework so that we continue to grow. It's come to my attention there are international communities sprouting up and there is already a demand for localization of the documentation into different languages. That's so amazing.

I've seen renewed interest in people taking their reactive state libraries and trying to skip the framework and see what they can do. That's where this all started. I've learned so much a long the way. Watching people take the same steps and making the same discoveries I did years ago is the greatest validation I could hope for.

Honestly this all is so amazing. So thank you all for being with me on this journey.

Top comments (15)

okikio profile image
Okiki Ojo • Edited

Does solid have a good animation framework? I'm thinking of creating an integration for @okikio/animate.

@okikio/animate is an animation library that uses the Web Animation API (you can read more about it on CSS-Tricks). While going through Solid's docs I remember seeing a demo that used the Web Animation API, so, I thought it might be a good idea. The problem is that I'm rather inexperienced with using reactive frameworks, so, I'm not sure how I should go ahead designing an animation framework for solidjs?

This a bit of an aside but solidjs's createResource method is difficult to use for asynchronous tasks that aren't fetch operations, it was the main reason I had to abandon using solidjs for one my projects, namely had a web worker to handle building and bundling but I found it difficult to setup an asynchronous loading system for when building and bundling was done within the worker.

dowa profile image
do-wa • Edited

Just for motivation: I think it would be a great thing if the solidjs ecosystem has a flexible, tailored and capable js animation lib (or bindings) which is at least for me something very important for a mobile-focused pwa.

For the syntax: this is something to explore but I do like framer-motions syntax for the most parts which would translate to e.g. "create_" reactive constructs for interpolation/motions. I'm too new to solid to even have any idea how a good approach would look like and there is probably a ton of other stuff to figure out.

Additionally - I'm no animation expert at all (I guess this became clear in the first two paragraphs). Just someone who has used react with motion for some apps. But I do wonder if/how stuff like

<AnimatePresence />

is feasible with solidjs?

okikio profile image
Okiki Ojo

I think so, I was discussing @okikio/animate with @mattgperry (the creator of Motion & Framer) yesterday, I'll ask for his opinion on solid js.

ryansolid profile image
Ryan Carniato

I did a quick port of Transition Groups like you find in Vue or React. But I haven't anything nice to that scale. I think currently it is a hole so I'd love to see work done in this area.

trusktr profile image
Joe Pea

Random thought: could it be possible to move animations to dom-expressions, and let people hook into it with different libs (f.e. Tween.js, Anime.js, Green Sock, etc).

Thread Thread
ryansolid profile image
Ryan Carniato

Maybe.. but unclear what the hooks are. It's possible with the right understanding we could atleast animate native elements. I just don't know what the right solution would look like.

okikio profile image
Okiki Ojo

Should I aim for a react-motion like syntax or aim for a custom one for solid js?

Thread Thread
ryansolid profile image
Ryan Carniato

Honestly, I'd defer to anyone who has the experience of using these libraries for what makes the most sense. Animation is a weakspot for me. I've always leveraged mostly manual CSS techniques etc and focused more on the mechanics of features than the polish working on large long running projects. I often delegated animations to other developers on my team. So my opinion on animation wrappers is limited.

Thread Thread
okikio profile image
Okiki Ojo

Ok, thanks

nafizmahmud_94 profile image
Nafiz Mahmud

You can use motion one -

drsensor profile image

Hi, do you have a written article on how HMR in Solid.js implemented?

Since Solid component return DOMNode instead of VNode, I wonder if I can borrow some ideas to make HMR works with ECS pattern 🤔 (commonly use in real-time game and simulator)

ryansolid profile image
Ryan Carniato

HMR is quite possibly the most difficult problem Ive come across for the fine-grained approach(yes harder than Suspense and Concurrent Rendering). Its harder than hydration since no expectation of things matching. So I consider the solution incomplete. Solid only preserves state above the change. Even Svelte's HMR which does preserve the state blows out nested elements when I last checked. This is a place where VDOM diffing has an easier time.

mtyson profile image

Should have asked you about HMR :)

forivall profile image
Emily Marigold Klassen

Of course you called your creation "solid". Great job Ryan!

ryansolid profile image
Ryan Carniato

Thanks, Emily. Naming is hard. I went the lazy way the same way I did with my band name.