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Ben Halpern
Ben Halpern

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What is Apple thinking?

It's been a few days. You've probably read about this.

Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery

Apple intends to install software on American iPhones to scan for child abuse imagery, according to people briefed on its plans, raising alarm among security researchers who warn that it could open the door to surveillance of millions of people’s personal devices.

Apple detailed its proposed system — known as “neuralMatch” — to some US academics earlier this week, according to two security researchers briefed on the virtual meeting. The plans could be publicised more widely as soon as this week, they said.

The automated system would proactively alert a team of human reviewers if it believes illegal imagery is detected, who would then contact law enforcement if the material can be verified. The scheme will initially roll out only in the US.

Apple declined to comment.

Has Apple spoken more to this yet? I have yet to see anyone in our industry offer up rationale for why this company that fought so hard to deny the FBI access to a terrorist's iPhone is no proactively developing surveillance functionality into the device in this way. I think we can all agree that preventing child predators is a good thing, but not like this.

With a few days to digest this and gather info/opinions, what are your thoughts?

Oldest comments (44)

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ben profile image
Ben Halpern

Apple had been positioning itself so distinctly against where Google stood on all of this stuff. This was your option if you weren't in favor of all the Google stuff.

There's even a universe where Apple outlines specifically how and why this needs to work in this specific way and offers up an explicit answer to dissuade any slippery slope concerns, but it just doesn't seem that way.

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liquid_chickens profile image
Chris Dodds

John Gruber has some good analysis on this: daringfireball.net/2021/08/apple_c...

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bonespiked profile image
bonespiked

It's possible that since you back up your photos to apple's servers - and sign EULA that they own the images (in order for them to possess them) - they have a vested interest in NOT owning images depicting the horrific subject in question.... That said, they could have done it on the images as they are uploaded to iCloud - and maybe it's just a PR thing where they don't want their brand associated with the topic at all...

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karandpr profile image
Karan Gandhi

I liked Dr. Neal Krawetz's take on this issue.
hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/a...

Not sure why apple is doing this or rather why apple chose to disclose it now. It's very odd.

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andrewbrown profile image
Andrew Brown 🇨🇦

The next 20 years is going to really interesting.

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zenulabidin profile image
Ali Sherief

Apple backing down on an announced new encryption system at the FBI's pressure should've raised warning signs.

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foresthoffman profile image
Forest Hoffman

It sounds like Apple isn't comfortable with other parties spying on their customers. Only they get to spy on their customers.

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kspeakman profile image
Kasey Speakman • Edited

Based on the headlines I was ready to be upset with Apple. But everything is clickbait nowadays. After reading more of the details I don't have as much of a problem with it.

  • On device content-based scanning is opt-in
    • only for child accounts (12 and under)
    • only parent accounts are notified
  • iCloud scanning is opt-out (by turning off iCloud Photo Library sync)
    • Scanning is for fingerprints of known child explicit images from CSAM db

I am concerned what doors this opens in the future for privacy invasion. However I think the only comprehensive way to address this concern is with laws which guard digital privacy. Otherwise policy is up to each company's leadership. And even if I believed they were doing things the "right" way for privacy now, leadership eventually changes.

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leob profile image
leob • Edited

I tend to agree, I've read Apple's FAQ and their approach does look focused and targeted, it's not a broad sweep big brother kind of privacy invasion thing (there's also no automatic reporting to law enforcement, which would arguably be a bridge too far).

I'd even go farther than this, I'd be fine for them to filter/flag other horrible stuff (domestic violence, animal abuse, whatever) with this hash technology if they've got reliable databases of those - but their response should be a warning to the user trying to upload that and tell them stop doing it or risk termination of their iCloud service.

And of course state all of this clearly in their user agreements.

More than happy with ways for them to stop horrible stuff being stored on their cloud (well yeah, it's their cloud alright).

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brokenmold profile image
Jason Glass

I'm sure Getty Images would be turned in based on a similar scan.. Context is everything in all things.

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leob profile image
leob

There would clearly be a difference between Google or Apple scanning stuff that's being stored in their clouds, and them installing "spyware" ON your personal device.

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leob profile image
leob • Edited

Ben, is the statement that "Apple intends to install software on American iPhones" factually correct - is Apple planning to install software on US iPhones, or will they put systems in place to scan images stored in the iCloud by American users? Big difference if you ask me (although even then it's still a form of surveillance and "big brother").

What irks me most is that they would then go on to scan for stuff like child porn and such but not other vile imagery like domestic abuse, animal abuse and I could go on. Why take measures against one form of abuse but not the other, is there some sort of agreed-upon hierarchy of evilness or whatever? It reeks of hypocrisy and it's a slippery slope, that's why companies should refrain from this.

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jayjeckel profile image
Jay Jeckel

Yes, they are going to install software on the phones. The FAQ Apple put out as well as the rest of the released documentation is very clear that all scanning will be done on-device. See the FAQ PDF for details.

The answer to your second paragraph. On one side, Apple have hashes for CP images that already exist and both the acts depicted and the images themselves are illegal. On the other side, while the acts of domestic and animal abuse are illegal, images of those acts generally aren't illegal to posses. The supposed purpose of Apples program is to combat possession of illegal CP images, not to stop the perpetration of illegal actions, so nothing hypocritical about that aspect of it.

I do agree it's a slipper slope that no company should go down.

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leob profile image
leob • Edited

Thanks for clarifying, sound reasoning ... possessing those images is indeed illegal, so I think they have a pretty strong case in saying, we just don't want this stuff in our cloud, ergo we need to block it ... because well, Apple could even be held liable for storing it on their servers, and being complicit in a crime.

And with the hashing technology they arguably have the least questionable approach that you can think of. So yeah slippery slope, still, but there is something to be said for this.

(if they'd not just block it but also report perpetrators to law enforcement then I'd say "bridge too far", but that's not the case, apparently)

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ptejada profile image
Pablo Tejada

Fuck privacy! This is great. Is for a great cause.

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leob profile image
leob

Are you serious, or is this irony? Many things that have been said to be "for a great cause" have turned out disastrous.

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ptejada profile image
Pablo Tejada • Edited

Most people that think like yourself live in a bubble. A bubble with a seed that someone else planted. I could care less about your privacy. Nothing in life is perfect. Is all about supporting the lesser evil.

Besides, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about.

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leob profile image
leob • Edited

You're assuming a lot, aren't you? First of all, "most people that think like yourself ..." - so, you pretend to know exactly what or how I think? Maybe you're clairvoyant, it can't be based on my comment (and I didn't even mention privacy).

Another nice one, "A seed that someone else planted", oh yeah, give me break LOL ... yes sure, I'm totally brainwashed, I can't think for myself, unless someone else "plants the seed". But you are such a critical and independent thinker, right? So the "if you have nothing to hide" argument is your original thought, but how come then I've heard that one so many times, sounds like a cliche and a classic fallacy of there ever was one.

And then to top it off a nice putdown like "I could care less about your privacy", oh such a nice, friendly and polite way to discuss things, yes we really need this level of discourse here on dev.to !

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ptejada profile image
Pablo Tejada

Who needs privacy? Privacy is overrated.

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rhymes profile image
rhymes • Edited

"Activist X is an enemy of the state, please check their phone". Said every corrupt head of state ever who jailed people labelled as dissidents (super recent example: the president of Belarus jailing activists and even sports athletes)

If you think privacy is useless because you are a good citizen and you never committed a crime, then you don't really know what privacy is for :)

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maxart2501 profile image
Massimo Artizzu

Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say.

Edward Snowden

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wyattblake profile image
Wyatt Blake

Funny how apple calls it ‘ Expanded Protections for Children’ yet they use children to assemble their phones.

 
leob profile image
leob • Edited

Hold on, can you substantiate the claim that Google's apps are spyware, or are they rather just collecting anonymous usage data for the benefit of their advertisement business? IMO you can't just equate those two ...

In my mind companies like Apple and Microsoft with their obscene profit margins are just as "evil" (if not more) than Google - their business model is just different, which allows those two to act sanctimoniously versus Apple and Google when it comes to privacy (but Apple and MS are detestable in other ways).

Yeah maybe we should blame ourselves, but OTOH maybe most of use don't care that much ... and even if everything's open source, someone's gotta pay for hosting and running the services, or would we all suddenly go take a subscription instead of enjoying freebees? If you give people a choice then most of them will take the freebees with ads rather than a subscription.

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rangercoder99 profile image
RangerCoder99

I more then happy let Apple scan my images, to get rid of child abuse!

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leob profile image
leob

I also wonder why Apple has taken this step, at this moment. Maybe some gentle urging from the direction of US authorities or government?

I can't help but notice how companies like Google, Apple and so on have all these lofty and pompous ideals and principles, only to drop those the moment they think they need to please the authorities.

 
leob profile image
leob • Edited

Fair enough, that's a choice more people should be making consciously - either you pay for stuff and retain your privacy, or you accept the freebees and stop whining about it.